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The description and image of this dessert looks very much like French Crème caramel (or nearly identical dish considered a local speciality in Dubrovnik, Croatia and called 'rožata'). Are they indeed the same? I must note that what I was buying under the name of 'flan' in Paris was much firmer, dry and cut into thick slices. --bonzi 23:09, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes, flan and crème caramel are variants of the same thing. Just to confuse matters, there are other dishes called "flan" as well. I have tried to clarify all this in the article. --Macrakis 20:12, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
I was thinking since flan is used for the open pie desert there should be a section on history of how Crème caramel became known as flan. Alas I have yet to find such imformation since this type of word-usage research is rarely written.Iamiyouareyou (talk) 22:05, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
I am increasingly more annoyed when I read foreign words used in the English language. The german word "Ersatz" is just that, german. Whereas, it would make sense on a german-wiki, it is irrational to use it on the english-wiki. It means "substitute". Use substitute or pseudo. The only real sensible use of foreign words in english articles would be titles or names, not regular words. </ end rant >Pvt Mahoney 23:05, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
- The English word 'ersatz', to my ear at least, has specific connotations which aren't captured by any of the alternatives I can think of--perhaps 'imitation'? Unlike the German word 'ersatz' from which it comes, it does not mean simply "replacement" or "substitute", and it is used specifically for food items. As the OED says, it is not only a substitute, but an inferior imitation. The American Heritage dictionary agrees: "An ersatz product is a transparently inferior imitation" (in the discussion of synonyms for 'artificial'). It seems like just the right word for margarine (ersatz butter), Bird's Custard, roasted chicory sold as coffee, etc. "Artificial" implies that the result is essentially the same, but it is produced in a non-natural way (e.g. vanillin vs. natural vanilla extract). "Substitute" doesn't imply that it is trying to imitate the original: you can substitute oil for lard in some recipes. "Imitation" is probably the closest, and is what is used legally in the US (e.g. "imitation mayonnaise" does not have the fat content etc. of "mayonnaise"), but it sounds bureaucratic (oops, a French-Greek word, how you say in English?) and unnatural to use "imitation" as an adjective. I suppose one could go for periphrasis (oops, I mean roundabout wording) and say that margarine is an imitation of butter instead of imitation butter. Are we having fun yet? --Macrakis 23:45, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm not much of a fan of margarine =P. I still dislike the use of foreign words on the english wiki for anything other than names or titles.
How do you define a "foreign word" exactly Mahoney? Will you be purging "hotel", "restaurant" and "sauna" from English Wiki? As Macrakis says, Once any word has become common place in English, especially when it has it's own, very specific, meaning, we can - for what it's worth - call it an "English" word. EasyTiger10 19:05, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Ick... the image there is not very good. Flan ought to be smooth on the side/ Also the caramel ought to be running down the sides, not in a disc of sorts on top. Anybody have a better picture?
Luca 7:34 April 10, 2006 (EST)
- The texture of the flan can vary greatly. I personally like the flan that's bubbly on the side. Whether the carmel is running down the side depends on whether the flan is served cold or served hot. But we could add second picture of a differently-textured served hot.--RLent 21:24, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I've been eating creme caramel in the UK for years now and it's always called that - creme caramel. Who calls it "caramel custard"?
Agreed. I've just had some creme caramel from my local supermarket.. never seen it labelled, or talked about, as caramel custard.
- In my experience (in the US), 'caramel custard' is a label for creme caramel in a more casual setting, like the kind that you get at a semi-fast-food chain, rather than the kind you get at a sit-down restaurant. </2¢> —Keakealani·?·!·@ 19:26, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
- The nearest is Larousse Gastronomique which calls creme au caramel "caramel-flavoured custard",
You should also note that in many Latin American countries they eat a flan called 'flan napolitano' which is often made with cream cheese but not exclusively. Sometimes the flavorings are coffee, cajeta, or vanilla.
I have never known crème caramel to be referred to as flan. Is this a localised term? Flan, however, I know to mean a custard tart, as the article states, but in English. Mnealon (talk) 02:22, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
As the article says:
- In the United States, the dish is now best-known in a Latin American context, so is often called flan; in Europe, it is generally known as crème caramel.
- A flan in the UK is something entirely different, not even involving custard. I have never heard a creme caramel referred to as a flan in my life. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it shouldn't simply redirect here. Let's leave it at the disambiguation without a redirect. The world isn't the USA. Bienfuxia (talk) 19:02, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- Whilst I've never heard creme caramel referred to as "flan" here in the UK, I have heard this in other countries as this article implies. But as you say, I think we either need to expand this article to include the UK meaning (a dessert consisting of fresh fruit arranged on a sponge cake base and covered in quick-setting jelly), or create a new article for that most important of foods. :) DWaterson (talk) 17:11, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
- Yup, "flan" is not a UK term for creme caramel, so the disambiguation shouldn't work like that. Before the 1980's the word "flan" meant (in the circles I moved in anyway) any kind of open pastry bake, which would include a quiche. When "Real men don't eat quiche" came out I had no idea what a "quiche" was, nor did most of my friends. "Oh its a *flan*" was our remark. US influence plus some from France (though less) seems to have given us the "quiche" word there. Much as zuccini seems to be gaining ground though slowly. 18.104.22.168 (talk) 23:38, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Flan is not a 2000Kcal dessert, unless you have several servings of a standard "flan"; also, many American viewers consider "calories" to be equivalent to Kcal. I have changed this to "varies," rather than the "2000" previous described. I do believe this more accurately describes flan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 04:59, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
In the second paragraph of the article it says, "In Spanish-speaking countries and in North America, flan refers to cream;" What does it mean, cream? Should the word be "custard" instead?
And in the same paragraph, "In Europe and many Commonwealth countries, the dish is generally known as cream caramel." Is that really true? I thought it was creme caramel or the vernacular equivalent. Diderot08 (talk) 01:43, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
In the article on Flan, the etymology of the word 'flan' goes back to Old Castillian, whereas in the etymology in this article traces 'flan' to Old High German. Can this be reconciled? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 18:00, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
Good afternoon. Some of the information provided in this article is wrong and it's also missing substantial and enough information, especially when it comes to Caribbean countries. I am from Cuba. We have been making "flans" or what you call "Creme Caramel" for generations; when I read the article I was surprised by how much misinformation was provided about our Cuban traditional flan. I just wanted to add some points to the Cuban section of how it is made (We don't call it "creme caramel" as it is said, we have called it "flan" for decades). Whether our Cuban terminology is right or wrong, that is the way we call it in our Country. I wanted to add a few words as explanation under the Cuban section of this article explaining all the different variations that we are used to make under one base recipe (we add many things to that, we are used to make flans not only with caramel, but also cheese, and our especialty: guava paste (very traditional in Cuba). Also, if possible, I would like to add a link as reference for readers to have an idea of how it is done, since I can't write all the recipes on the main page. My purpose of adding the comment is for others to understand how we, Cubans make the variation of that traditional flan (that's how we call it, not "creme caramel"). The link is to sutain my statement, which is: http://thecubanrecipes.com/flan/
- Thanks for your interest. It would be great to have more well-sourced information about flan in Cuba. In particular, it appears that Cuban flan is not necessarily crème caramel, but can be other kinds of custard. However, please note that recipes and links to recipes are generally not allowed by Wikipedia policy (see WP:NOT and WP:EL).
- About the name, it is not a question of 'right' and 'wrong', just of convention. As an encyclopedia (not a dictionary), Wikipedia focuses on documenting the thing; the names for the thing are more or less incidental. On the English-language Wikipedia, we use the English terms for things (cf. WP:EN).
- Thanks again for your interest, and welcome to Wikipedia. --Macrakis (talk) 19:24, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
"Elsewhere, including in France and Britain, flan usually means a custard tart" >> uh, what? I'm French and what we call a flan here clearly is what this article is about (crème caramel), I've never seen "flan" referring to any kind of tart... Just google "flan" on the French google images, as a proof... ;-)
A few comments on why I reverted some recent changes to the article:
- Lowercase 'flan' was changed to 'Flan', arguing that 'flan' is a proper noun. Is there any evidence for that? Why is it not a common noun like other names of dishes, e.g. pizza, roast beef, moussaka, etc.? Are there any reliable sources for this claim?
- Vertical whitespace was added presumably to make the photos format better. Unfortunately, that method is not reliable -- as WP:PIC says, "Remember that text will flow and wrap differently for other users, based on their chosen browser, screen resolution, default font size, accessibility options, number of toolbars and sidebars (such as instant messaging panes) and more. Do not force page design just so that it looks pretty on your display. Hack only where absolutely necessary. Wherever possible, just use the simplest logical page flow."
- For the capitalization of section headings, please see the relevant section of the Manual of Style.
- In addition, Iamiyouareyou, while I appreciate your contributions, it would simply be inaccurate to claim that leche flan is a Filipino-language derivative of the Spanish flan de leche, as such a construction in the language would violate even the former's basic rules of grammar. Two Filipino nouns, should the first one end in either an n or a vowel, should be joined by the connector na, contracted as -g or -ng; thus, "plang gatas" or, if one so wishes, "plang letse." --Pare Mo (talk) 03:33, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
Hoy 'Para mo', Tungkol sa Artikulo Crème caramelEdit
Gamit ang Ingles ko ay nagbago 'Anglicization' sa 'Filipino pagkakaiba-iba ng mga hiram na Espanyol pangalan'. Ang dahilan dito ay dahil Anglicization ay tungkol sa Ingles-Wika pagkakaiba-iba ng hindi Espanyol-wika pagkakaiba-iba.
Using English I changed ' Anglicization ' to ' Filipino variation of borrowed Spanish name'. The reason is because Anglicization is about English-Language variations not Spanish-language variations. Iamiyouareyou (talk) 14:32, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
Truth is even using Hispanicization in place of Anglicization in this context would not work. The reasoning I came to is because leche flan is not in anyway English or English derived not even in grammar. It's like in the modern English spelling of "french word Façade being spelled as Facade. Just as seen in English over time some borrowed words/names in Philippine Languages get incorrectly used. In closing sorry but Anglicization does not work.Iamiyouareyou (talk) 15:12, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
- It would be unreasonable for either of us, however, to try and dictate the rules of how the Filipino language is used. For that, there are institutions such as the SWF of the University of the Philippines, and the KWF, the official national-language regulator.
- Let's try to reach a compromise. Instead of you and I clinging to our respective positions, why don't we describe leche flan simply as the more-neutral local term? That way, we don't get into discussions we're not supposed to involve ourselves in, seeing that this is an encyclopedia. I went ahead to change the disputed paragraph. Tell me what you think. --Pare Mo (talk) 17:13, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
Article in EspañolEdit
Rename to FlanEdit
a) The French wikipedia Flan page does not describe Crème caramel in particular, but baked custards in general. It might make sense to *merge* Crème caramel into the custard article, but that is another matter. b) We have a reliable source (Davidson) for the name crème caramel in English. By the way, there are no reliable sources at all in the French flan article. If you still think the article should be renamed, please discuss here. --Macrakis (talk) 06:18, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
Move, Rename, and MergeEdit
I propose we rename Crème caramel to "Flan," and merge with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flan the current flan article is in a rather poor state, and I'm pretty sure not the thing most of the english speaking world is looking for when they search for "flan" this was proposed in Rename to Flan but not really resolved. According to wikidata, most languages recognize this concept as some variation on the term flan https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q374381
Jared Zimmerman (talk) 19:16, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
- A couple of issues here.
- Are the British flan = custard tart and the Spanish flan = French crème caramel basically the same dish, or not? From what I've seen, they're actually very different. Both include custard (crème in French), but the custard tart has a crust, and is usually garnished with fruit, and usually does not have caramel sauce. Crème caramel has no crust, is usually not garnished with fruit, and always has caramel sauce. Since they are different, even if the name "flan" is used for both in some places, WP policy says there should be two articles, even if they have to be called, say, flan (tart) and flan (custard) or whatever. That is, we need to find different titles for the two articles. Flan and crème caramel seems like good candidates.
- As I understand it, "flan" is mostly used to mean crème caramel in North America, and there mostly in the context of Spanish and Mexican cuisine. What makes you think that "the thing most of the english speaking world is looking for when they search for "flan" " is crème caramel? --Macrakis (talk) 00:10, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
Although the article mentions a variant made with an instant powder and agar agar, many Japanese recipes seem to be more comparable Panna Cotta, using "bloomed" gelatin with a warm, liquid dairy base and no eggs (making it a viable dessert for those with egg allergies or intolerances). A number of instant brands also appear to be egg-free; so, the Japanese concept might be inspired by creme caramel, but the actual products straddle between the traditional recipe and Panna Cotta.