Talk:Cossack riots

Name

As far as I can tell, this article (with zero inline references) focuses on the pogroms of the Jews during the Khmelnitsky Uprising. The subtopic is probably notable, although the article right now is also bordering on the WP:POVFORK of the main article. I don't think the term "Cossack riots" is used in English literature to describe this. Interwiki to the Ukrainian article reveals it uses the name G'zeroth Tah v'Tat (the decrees of '48 and '49). [1]. I can't however verify those terms are used in English either. I'd suggest renaming this to Pogroms of the Jews during the Khmelnytsky Uprising, a more clear title. Thoughts? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:56, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

I would try Anti-Jewish violence during the Khmelnytsky Uprising, as the word "pogrom" is more associated with Anti-Jewish pogroms in the Russian Empire and searching "Khmelnytsky pogroms" gets a lot of hits for a 1919 pogrom. The article does list WP:RS as sources, although inline citations would be a definite improvement. buidhe 18:22, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

If we were to go strictly by WP:GTEST, I think the most popular name would be Massacres of 1648–49 or Khmelnytsky massacres. Pharos (talk) 20:02, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

"Khmelnytsky pogroms" seems to be a alternate name for Pogroms during the Russian Civil War, perhaps could be the subject of a header dab. Pharos (talk) 13:31, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

If we were to adapt the traditional Jewish name, Gzeyres Takh Vetat (shorter: Takh Vetat) is used by the The YIVO Encyclopedia of Jews in Eastern Europe. Pharos (talk) 20:27, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

The article is a huge WP:POVFORK. I've redirected it to the Uprising article which covers all the points.--Aristophile (talk) 15:25, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Wait a minute, this was an independent article for 5 years. Though it was under a poor name, it's not appropriate to redirect it without discussion. The massacres of Jews are an aspect of the Khmelnytsky Uprising (along with all of the other articles of Category:Khmelnytsky Uprising, including other massacres) but it is not identical to it. We would be in a strange place if every article on a particular war crime got upmerged to the article on the war itself. Pharos (talk) 00:02, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

I removed the following paragraph

I took out

Others such as Hannover tended to link the sanctions of 1848–1988 to the Ashkenazi Kiddush tradition of the Middle Ages, from events such as the 1096 decrees of Blois from 1171. The day Nemyriv was conquered, 10 June 1648, is also the Memorial Day in memory of the victims of the Cossacks. Yet, there were no similar events like mass suicide in the days of the Crusaders in 1650. Historian Jacob Katz tended to associate this to the erosion of the ideal of Kiddush Hashem (the sanctification of God's name through martyrdom) in the past centuries, but Feram wrote that it remained as strong as ever. The difference between the riots was due to external circumstances. Unlike the Crusaders, the rebellious Ruthenians had no organized policy of conversion: they classified anyone who was not Orthodox as an enemy but did not intend to spread their own faith. Also, there are reports of Jews who converted to Christianity voluntarily and still were killed. The Eastern Church had no direct connection with the rioters. For their part, they dealt with looting and killing for their own sake, nobility, Catholics and Uniates as Jews. Paul of Aleppo, who visited the country a few years later, told of a desire for extermination. Even the masses, who were not familiar with the halakhic elements of the hour of annihilation but were well aware of the principle of a long tradition, viewed the events as a politic class struggle rather than an attempt to convert them, as many reports indicate, both from the chronicles and from testimonies to the courts after everything happened.

"Sanctions" is a machine-generated translation that probably should be "massacre." But what could 1848-1988 mean? Similarly "the 1096 decrees of Blois" probably refers to a pogrom of that time and place, but what does 1171 mean? Or 1650? As for the discussion that follows, the commentary should be used, but I'm reluctant to rework it; someone more familiar with both the history and the religious scholarship should do so. Zeno Cosini~enwiki (talk) 010:07, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

I assume "1096" to be a reference to the Rhineland massacres in Germany. There were no "Decrees of Blois" that I know of, but there was a pogrom in the city of that same name during the next year you mentioned-1171.

I have no idea what "Crusaders of 1650" they were talking about. In the Rhineland massacres I mentioned previously, many Jews did indeed kill their entire families and then themselves so they would not be killed or forcefully converted by the hands of the Crusaders.

The dates of 1848 and 1988 are difficult to understand, since they are not significant dates in Jewish history. Hannover himself died in 1683 so it would be impossible for him to know what happen in those two years. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 23:10, 3 December 2022 (UTC)