Talk:Conservative Party (UK)/Archive 5

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Page move discussion

Hi. You might be interested in this discussion. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 09:33, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

Infobox: party leader

I don't know what the wikipedia practice is for this, but IMHO we don't need to include outgoing next to the party leader's name in the infobox. It's certainly not the practice in Canadian political party articles. Perhaps it is for British political party articles. What say you all? GoodDay (talk) 15:19, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

On her own page, the infobox says "Acting: since 7 June 2019", so would assume this page should also say acting for consistency 1234567jack (talk) 16:06, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

Leader of HoC

Is there a reason why the Leader of the House of Lords is listed in the infobox, but not Leader of the House of Commons? I thought it may have been taken off and not replaced when Andrea Leadsom quit, but looking at history this is not the case. 1234567jack (talk) 16:03, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

Leader of the House is a role in a government. Traditionally the party's leader in the Lords carries out this job in that chamber, but the leader in the Commons doesn't. Timrollpickering (Talk) 10:54, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

No, Baroness Evans is Leader of the House of Lords, it is a role in government, not party political. She is not the Conservative Party leader in the House of Lords. There is no such thing if you look at the party's structure https://www.conservatives.com/Members/Party-Structure-and-Organisation. For that reason I feel she should not be listed either. See also the roles page on the government website https://www.gov.uk/government/ministers/leader-of-the-house-of-lords. 1234567jack (talk) 18:20, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

"Boris Johnson (2019-present)"

That way of formatting the sub-section title in the article might give the impression that we're assuming that he'll last until 2020... -- AnonMoos (talk) 22:07, 8 September 2019 (UTC) Cringe... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.7.124.20 (talk) 19:53, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

"Centre-right political party"

One may argue it would now be legitimately fair and more accurate to describe the Conservative Party as far-right, as since 2019 they have openly espoused nationalist, nativist and authoritarian policies which would not be reasonably regarded as politically centric. 86.6.59.59 (talk) 22:07, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

I agree that we should include the far-right descriptor, but probably as part of a spectrum, "right-wing to far-right," like we typically do in the articles on comparable parties with which the Conservative Party (UK) has had formal cooperation agreements at the European level, such as Alternative for Germany ("is a right-wing to far-right political party in Germany"). We already have a discussion on this above. The descriptor "centre-right", particularly when used as the only descriptor of the contemporary Johnson-led anti-immigrant party, is an obvious falsehood that comes close to propaganda. --Tataral (talk) 21:56, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Opposed. The position should be based on reliable sources, not users' personal opinions or elevation of the importance of alliances in the EU Parliament (which only the Brussels bubble cares about) as core defining. Timrollpickering (Talk) 00:17, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

The position is based on reliable sources, many of which have remarked on the party's shift to the right, and as far as I can tell on a consensus on this talk page. Certainly a description of Boris Johnson's party in 2019 as "right-wing" (a fairly broad and inoffensive term that typically includes conservatives; even Law and Justice is described as right-wing populist) is utterly uncontroversial and universally recognised by non-FRINGE sources, except those sources that prefer the descriptor "far-right" instead. Our article on right-wing politics notes that "the term right-wing can generally refer to "the conservative or reactionary section of a political party or system".

The WP:FRINGE position that Boris Johnson and the party he leads are somehow "centre-right" on the other hand is not based on any reliable sources, and cannot be included as the only descriptor in this article, as a number of editors have pointed out for some time now. Centre-right is a term that is associated with the political centre and that typically describes centrist parties like the EPP family. As many commentators have noted, the Conservative Party (UK) began drifting to the hard right exactly when it left the centre-right group (i.e. the EPP) and entered an official alliance with various squarely far-right parties. Centre-right is not a term that is used by many reliable sources when describing the Johnson party and its policies (or Johnson's ally Trump for that sake). One of the party's most senior politicians until recently, Philip Hammond, himself not exactly a left-winger within the party, just noted that the party is now "extreme right-wing."[1] And conservative newspaper The Daily Telegraph noted yesterday that Johnson has "fostered a squarely Right-wing Conservative Party".[2] Descriptions of the party as "centre-right" are generally many years old and refer to a completely different party with different people and different policies, and most importantly, that was part of the centre-right group, the EPP, which wouldn't touch people like Trump or Johnson the Brexiteer with a barge pole.

Of course the party's official alliances matter; it's the Conservative Party (UK) itself that recognised Alternative for Germany (frequently described as extremist in Germany), the True Finns, the Danish People's Party and a bunch of other anti-immigrant far-right parties as its official sister parties with which it shares its values and ideology. Nobody forced them to enter into an alliance with all those far-right parties. If someone officially joins a far-right alliance or party, it's a pretty strong indication that they are far-right. The notion that only "the Brussels bubble" cares about whether someone is far-right and anti-immigrant is just plain wrong, this party's drift to the hard right has been extensively commented on in British media too, and indeed by many of its own most senior politicians under the former more moderate leadership. --Tataral (talk) 05:02, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. The party has been drifting right for some time now, culminating with the election of Boris Johnson, who ejected all of the moderate (centre-right) MPs from the party for voting against him.[3] The Conservative Party's election campaign was also endorsed by far-right figures including Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, [4] who later announced he had joined the Conservative Party. [5] I think changing it from Centre-right to Right-wing to Far-right would better reflect the current state of the party. Grnrchst (talk) 14:26, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Support the retention of centre-right. Absolutely disagree with calling the party far-right, which is ridiculous. The party does not hold Neo-nazi, fascist or ultranationalist ideologies. A few figures from the far-right joining the party's membership and/or endorsing the party does not change the political position of the party as a whole on its own. The party needs to show a clear ideological and political shift through its rhetoric and policy positions, which have not changed to the far-right. I am possibly open to centre-right to right-wing, however I'm not currently convinced by the arguments made. The source referring to Johnson fostering the right-wing within the party falls under WP:SYNTHESIS as it is not explicitly calling the party itself right-wing as a whole. I am yet to see any reliable source that explicitly refers to the party as a whole as right-wing. Helper201 (talk) 14:42, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Here are sources which refer to Boris seeking the centre or middle ground:

• https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnsons-manifesto-will-abandon-threat-of-a-no-deal-brexit-6gd8xj9nb
• https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/13/general-election-results-2019-live-boris-johnson-conservatives/
• https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/13/boris-johnson-signals-huge-lurch-middle-ground-new-labour-style/
• https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/21/boris-johnson-centrist-tories-leadership-bid-pitch

Helper201 (talk) 15:00, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

What we are discussing here is the nonsensical description of the party, in the present tense, only as "centre-right", as opposed to using one or more descriptors that reflect how up-to-date reliable sources actually view the party today, for example as right-wing, an inoffensive broad descriptor that may include conservative/national-conservative parties like this party and Poland's Law and Justice party (which is in fact described as such) and numerous of the Conservative Party (UK)'s official sister parties. I think the best solution is to describe the party today as mainly right-wing and historically as mainly centre-right, while noting its perceived far-right tendencies in recent years. It's quite uncontroversial that there is a tendency or faction within the party that is far-right/extreme right, even Philip Hammond[6] and other prominent former Tory politicians have said that.

The description of the party led by Johnson as only centre-right, with no mention of either right-wing or far-right tendencies, is WP:FRINGE, pure and simple. Also, a party doesn't need to be neo-Nazi or fascist to be far-right, that's not at all how the term far-right is used. Far-right, like right-wing and centre right, is a broad term that may describe many different ideologies to the right of centre-right and moderately right-wing politics. Our own article on far-right politics simply defines it broadly as "politics further on the right of the left-right spectrum than the standard political right", which is certainly true for this party today. --Tataral (talk) 17:50, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Centre-right per the sources listed by Helper201. Adoring nanny (talk) 19:35, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Centre-right or right - I'm certainly no fan, but they are clearly a mainstream conservative party, sure there's some far-right loons among them, but the party is not Neo-nazi, fascist, ultranationalist or driven by any other far right ideology overall. Bacondrum (talk) 23:14, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Centre-right: I am anything but a Tory. However, it is ludicrious to suggest they are anything but centre-right. Brexit isn't a "left" or "right" issue, and if you look at the (vanilla) tory manifesto - moderate, plain and simple. Wikipedia is evidence-based and factual. Not a place for people to litter pages with their political views.Executiveop (talk) 23:19, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Centre-right from a quick look over Google Books and Google Scholar, academic and book sources tend to describe the party as "centre-right". So do news sources, including recent news sources. That doesn't mean that the party's relationship with the far-right (such that it is) isn necessarily not worth discussing; it just means that it's not been established that any other description is more appropriate. Ralbegen (talk) 23:41, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Centre-right There are plenty of groups, such as Bright Blue and others who are liberal Tories, also Boris Johnson has declared his administration to be "One Nation Conservative". David J Johnson (talk) 12:39, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Right - Right Wing would be more appropriate. Brexit may not be a left - right wing issue, however immigration, crime and government spending is. It is widely recognised that the UK conservative party takes a much more right nationalist approach to crime and immigration than many European counterparts. If you want evidence on this, you have the whole issue of the European migrant crisis, where the centre right governing party in Germany, the CDU, opened Germany's borders. Whether as more right leaning/right wing & Nationalist governments in Turkey and Hungary closed their borders after a certain period, with the UK closing theirs off almost immediately. So at least if the description isn't changed from centre-right to right leaning or right wing, then it should at least be edited to include 'Nationalist', as it is very much concerned with preserving British Nationalism, cutting immigration, and promoting tougher police and crime stances, whether as a more centrist and 'compassionate conservative' approach would be to tackle these issues by improving circumstances. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.38.94 (talk) 23:23, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Again, I am anything but a tory. But this is just incorrect. Firstly, the UK's borders were never "open" - like Ireland, the UK has long had an optout from schengen. Additionally, the UK joined in Operation Triton. Also, the Tories' stance on crime and police is absolutely not nationalist, and never has been. I'm sorry, but that is completely baseless. The tories' stance on crime is no tougher than New Labour's. Meanwhile, Theresa May may have tried to cut down on immigration during her time as home secretary and PM, but she never achieved that target (not even close) and has never approached it in a "nationalist" manner (although the "hostile environment" was absolutely disgraceful, it isn't nationalist, and it was a policy previously shared by New Labour and (during the coalition) the Liberal Democrats). Furthermore, under Cameron the Tories were pretty relaxed on immigration. Johnson is meanwhile even more pro-immigration (he's advocated an amnesty for 500,000 illegal immigrants, and his proposed points-based system is generally considered to increase, not reduce, immigration).--Executiveop (talk) 00:50, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

There's not really any value to discussing immigration policy here—the only important thing is descriptions of the party in reliable sources. I'd say particularly in academic sources, for a topic as well-covered as the UK's Conservative Party. Ralbegen (talk) 10:18, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Agreed --Executiveop (talk) 12:22, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Oppose this proposal The Conservative Party is a centre-right party as described by reliable sources. It has not been described as "far-right" in reliable sources.  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 15:03, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Claiming the Conservative Party is far-right is clearly an indication to how left wing your beliefs are, than anything. There is no evidence pointing to this fact. If a party is to even be considered right-wing, then it must contain socially conservative aspects, sometimes religious values, looking at examples such as Law and Justice from Poland or the Liberal Democratic Party in Japan. But the Conservative Party contains none of these. Just because you are a Communist, it does not make everyone who opposes you far-right.

The term far-right is reserved for Fascist and Nazi Parties, even the Italian Social Movement was considered right-wing to far-right rather than simply far-right. To imply that the Conservative Party is a Neo-Fascist or Ultra-Reactionary Party is just nonsense. You are simply insulting the millions who died in regimes such as that of Nazi Germany. Azaan Habib 16:37, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't agree with the idea that the Conservative Party is far-right - that's clearly just a comparison of one's own politics compared to the Conservatives' agenda - and begs the question, if they're what far-right is, then what on earth would the NSDAP come under? However, I too believe that the Conservatives see themselves as more centre-ground than they really are - and there have been numerous Conservative or former Conservative MPs (Rory Stewart, Anna Soubry, John Major, even Theresa May) who have expressed discontent either over a certain policy that they deem to be not reminiscent of the truly centre-right Conservative Party they seem to be familiar with (pre-Hague, or even pre-Johnson) or that the Conservative Party itself has strayed towards the right. I'd say there are sufficient ministers in high up roles who are right-wing - Priti Patel is the highest example of this, but I'd also say Jacob Rees-Mogg and Michael Gove are arguably in that category too - in their social and economic policy alike (in particular the former has attracted concern from the aforementioned MPs, immigration policy has definitely skewed toward right-wing populism). I wouldn't say it's skewed far enough or dropped enough of its centre-right politicians or policies to be considered entirely right-wing, as it still retains that, but the Johnson administration has displayed right-wing policies (particularly on its Police, Crime and Sentencing Bill, where protests are restricted and a rather populist attitude to memorials is taken, as well as on its new asylum policies) - therefore it would indeed make sense to put it as centre-right to right-wing, to take into account this shift. I'd also state that populism and national conservatism are increasingly factions within this party, but that's a different discussion entirely. User:Forvana 14:47, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Infobox - number of MPs

Ten of the Conservative rebel MPs have had the party whip restored tonight. Culloty82 (talk) 19:15, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 29 October 2019

Change the number of Conservative Members of Parliament from 288 to 298. On October 29th 10 former Conservative MPs had their whips restored. Factsinwiki (talk) 19:35, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

 Already done see Special:Diff/923630317. Thanks, NiciVampireHeart 22:11, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 November 2019

Jonathan Nightfire (talk) 00:51, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Political Position: Right-Wing through Far-Right

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.. 03:46, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 December 2019

conservative party now have 364 seats Libertyaaaa (talk) 09:31, 13 December 2019 (UTC)  Not done: as they ended up with 365 seats. - Arjayay (talk) 17:55, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Theresa May official portrait.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:51, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion:

• Theresa May official portrait (cropped).jpg
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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:12, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 December 2019

Change references of the conservative party being a 'centre-right' party to 'centre-right to right-wing', due to the recent surge to the right by some areas of the party showing such terminology is reasonable and has been used by media outlets, political commentators, and even former conservative cabinet ministers. Bwahah123 (talk) 23:36, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 03:56, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Party Anthem

List Land of Hope and Glory as Party Anthem as it is the Party Anthem Ncooksey12 (talk) 07:44, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

No it is not an official "Anthem". David J Johnson (talk) 11:06, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

Eurosceptic party - Ideology

Under Tory manifesto in 2019, the Conservative Party takes a Eurosceptic stance, this is also shown in its membership of the European Conservatives and Reformists Party. Why is this not in the ideology of the wiki page? (Airline7375 (talk) 17:41, 15 June 2020 (UTC))

That’s a good question, Airline7375. The issue is that even though the current party leaders are Eurosceptic, it’s much closer to an even split. The change was made in the past and was considered controversial because labeling the party as Eurosceptic gives the impression that almost all party members are Eurosceptic, which is not the case. Ezhao02 (talk) 19:57, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes I understand this, Ezhao02, but as euroscepticism was drawn out In the 2019 election, MPs were given the choice to withdraw their candidacy as a conservative in seats, or support his deal to leave the EU. I respect your view on this matter however as I do understand their is some pro-European factions within, but is a minority.

(2A02:C7F:9882:D300:AD4F:812A:D837:6F52 (talk) 02:00, 16 June 2020 (UTC))

This isn't my view; it's the consensus other editors have discussed. I think we should have other editors comment since I haven't been very involved on this page. Ezhao02 (talk) 02:38, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Every single Conservative party member that contested the election promised to vote for Boris Johnson's deal... and every single one that was elected did. The party ran on a eurosceptic stance, and it's important to note that just because a party was originally for something, it doesn't mean they can't change their mind. Take the German party, Alternative for Germany, for example. It used to be reasonably libertarian, but many could argue that it has crypto-fascist. So I think it's safe to say that a party that has 365 eurosceptic MPs and 365 seats in parliament is eurosceptic. However, many Conservative voters and even members still support the EU. This includes David Cameron, former British Prime Minister. So I suggest adding eurosceptisism as an ideology, but adding Pro-Europeanism as a faction. Dylan109 (talk) 20:36, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 25 July 2020

Political Position Right Wing to Far Right 81.110.67.21 (talk) 02:36, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. They're not far right. — Czello 05:56, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Local Government

I note that with the exception of the London assembly and the elected Mayor of London little mention is made of the work of the party in local government. Ideally perhaps there ought to be a list of the local authorities the party has controlled with dates and perhaps some account of the first steps in putting forward and the election of official Conservative local councillors. This is a job for an enthusiast obviously (which I am not.) On a separate point I am not sure that the details about the London Assembly are appropriate in an article about the party nationally unless similar details are included for other large cities (Birmingham,Manchester and Glasgow perhaps.) Spinney Hill (talk) 12:38, 4 August 2020 (UTC)Spinney Hill (talk) 12:39, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Note about Party Ideology

Just a quick note to any editors.
The Conservative Party is not a Right-Wing or Far-Right Party. Here are how to following is generally used to classify political parties:
Centre-Right: Economically liberal parties, which generally support some form of civic nationalism and sometimes contains moderate Conservative elements. Parties following Christian Democracy are often considered Centre-Right. Examples can be found in the British Conservative Party, and the CDU from Germany.

Centre-Right to Right-Wing: Centre-right parties which contain nationalistic or socially Conservative elements, sometimes religious wings. A good example is the People's Party from Spain.

Right-Wing: Socially Conservative and Nationalistic Parties, a good example is the Liberal Democratic Party from Japan, or the United Future Party from South Korea. It is common for them to vigorously oppose cultural changes which have taken place since the 1960s.

Right-Wing to Far-Right, Far-Right: Neo-Fascist and Socially Reactionary Parties, often extremely Nationalistic and sometimes supporting ethnic nationalism. The perfect example of one is the National Fascist Party from Italy.

As from here, you can quite easily see that the Conservative Party does not fall below Centre-Right. The fact that it is now openly Eurosceptic does not change anything, as Euroscepticism itself is not a right or left wing ideology - several left wing parties are Eurosceptic. Azaan Habib 13:44, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

The Conservative Party does fall below centre-right, as it has contained socially conservative since creation and also does contain Christian factions which clearly places the party in the centre-right to right-wing category. That is before recent events have even been considered, such as right-wing populist rhetoric and the incumbent Conservative Home Secretary supports the death penalty. Crunchynotsmooth (talk) 22:05, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Lead Section: Lord Salisbury Mention Request

In the lead section it is stated "Under Benjamin Disraeli, it played a preeminent role in politics at the height of the British Empire", yet Disraeli only served 7 years as Prime Minister in the 1860s and 70s. Moreover 3rd Marquess of Salisbury served 13 years as Prime Minister which included the apex of the Empire at the turn of the century. Therefore wouldn't it be more fitting to mention Salisbury if not instead then at least alongside Disraeli. ViscountW (talk) 23:53, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Ideology

It should be clarified that the Conservative Party is a liberal conservative party. Any other persuasions within the party are completely marginalised. An even better description of the party's ideology would be "(social) liberalism", but I understand that there would be little support for that. --79.70.173.20 (talk) 19:27, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Change of political position and addition of Euro-scepticism as ideology

I suggest that the political position part of the information box is changed from 'Centre-right' to 'Centre-right to Right-wing' to reflect changes in the Conservative party over the last 5 years, and also add 'Euro-scepticism' to the ideology due to all cabinet ministers now being Euro-sceptic and many campaigning for Vote Leave in 2015-2016. JacobSammon1 (talk) 18:05, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

 Not done This has been discussed in the past; Euroscpeticism isn't a definitive ideology from the top to the bottom of the party, it's just the current leadership's direction. We wouldn't include it for the same reason we didn't have One Nation Conservatism under Cameron -- instead this is detailed under the Party Factions section. Similarly the sources still predominately call the party centre-right, not right wing. — Czello 18:14, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

 Comment: How about the addition of it with sources? More information can't hurt! Just commenting because your guys conclusion has not seem to stopped the edit warring over this issue. B. M. L. Peters (talk) 11:30, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Info box for UK general elections

This section has several discrepancies with the data given. I recently edited the 1841 United Kingdom general election article to note that it was the party's best-ever vote share, based on what Conservative_Party_(UK)#UK_general_elections says; however, the 1841 election article has now been reverted, as it doesn't match the figure given in that article.

At Talk:1841_United_Kingdom_general_election#Untitled I have noted the following: The 1841 election article currently says their vote share was 51.6%, with 306,314 votes (the latter figure is the same as that given by User:Rmallett). However, on the Conservative Party article, the vote figure of 379,694 is given - which is exactly the same as that for the 1837 election above it, so something has gone wrong.

The figure on the Conservative Party article is 56.9%, which contradicts the 1841 election article. It is also odd that the number of votes cast for them in 1841 is exactly the same as that from the previous election. Maybe a copy and paste error? There are other discrepancies in this data too:

The 1835 United Kingdom general election has the same vote count as this article, but a vote share of 42.8% - this article says it was 40.8%.

The 1837 United Kingdom general election again has the same vote count as this article, but again has a different vote share: 47.6%, compared to 48.3% here.

The 1847 United Kingdom general election differs on the vote share, but only slightly: 42.6%, compared to 42.7% here.

The results of the 1852 United Kingdom general election actually match, and I haven't got the time or energy to compare the numbers for each article from that point on. But can someone please clarify the correct figures, and edit them accordingly? In any case, it seems more likely that 1931 United Kingdom general election was the best ever vote share won by the Conservatives, not 1841. --TrottieTrue (talk) 22:55, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Nationalism

I propose the addition of British nationalism to the infobox with sources, firstly, although the party was neutral on Brexit before and during the referendum, Boris promoted "leave" before he became party leader then prime minister. Secondly the parties stance on a Scottish independence referendum is not to have one under Boris Johnson, British unionism is already listed but shouldn't British nationalism also be listed? The two ideas are not mutually exclusive. Thirdly the points based immigration system, introduced and implemented under the conservatives, this can also be seen as a form of nationalism depending on who you talk too as it decreases the ability of people to immigrate to the country, So I believe adding and sourcing British nationalism to the infobox could be informative! Please let me know your opinions! B. M. L. Peters (talk) 11:22, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose unless you can back up your claims with reliable sources that describe the Conservative Party in this way. PinkPanda272 (talk/contribs) 12:22, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Can I just point out to B. M. L. Peters that it is generally bad practise to edit comments after you have made them; if you wish to delete something then score it out with <s> tags like this, and if you have something to add then just reply to your own comment. This makes it clearer what the original proposal was, and which bits have been added/removed. Thanks, PinkPanda272 (talk/contribs) 16:27, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose as far as I'm aware the Conservative Party has never described itself in this way. also the proposed change would look similar to far-right groups - such as the British National Party. David J Johnson (talk) 12:40, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
• Strong oppose. They're obviously not a nationalist party, nor even close to that. A lot of the above appears to be WP:OR. Also remember that ideologies in the infobox must be ideologies that define the party from the top to the bottom -- it has to be something that accurately describes their policy as a whole, rather than a small number of individuals or even factions (not that I think there's any evidence of that, either). — Czello 12:53, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per above, unsourced WP:OR.  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 15:16, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Party Name

Hello all again! I have made previous suggestions before, however this is a question as much as it is a suggestion. The title of the party page is "Conservatives (UK)", however this is not the official name of the party, which is "Conservative and Unionist Party", other political parties in the U.K's, official full names are used for there respective Wikipage's, for example the Labour Party, Liberal Democrats, Scottish National Party, Plaid Cymru, and the Green Party of England and Wales, albeit some with the (UK) tag to help differentiate it from worldwide parties of the same name. If we change the Wikpage name to it's official party name, this would place the party on par with the previously mentioned parties with respect to name, and decrease the size of the intro paragraph by removing "The Conservative Party, officially the" beginning sentence, and we could get rid of the (UK) tag unintentionally making making Wikipage more unique. I'd like some thoughts on this. But I also question as to why the parties Wikipage title, it not it's official party name, like the aforementioned parties. B. M. L. Peters (talk) 14:29, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Article names are decided per WP:ARTICLENAME, the basic principle of which is to use the most common name relevant to the organisation in question, and then distinguish it so far as is necessary. In the case of political parties, WP:NCPARTY applies more precise principles to this.

In this case, the party brand themselves "Conservatives", but "Conservative", as with "Labour", is too oft-used a word in common speech to always render it sufficiently distinguishable from "conservative" or "labour", so it is pretty common for the parties, despite their branding, to be referred to in common speech as "the Conservative Party" and "the Labour Party", hence our choice of article name for each. "Liberal Democrats", by contrast, is sufficiently unique a set of words to render it unlikely to be confused with the concept of "liberal democracy" in common speech, and so needs no "Party" qualification.

Broadly, you appear to be proposing solutions in search of a problem: certainly, the article cannot go to "Conservative and Unionist Party", because that name is never used except in an extremely formal context, and so to do so would be in breach of WP:COMMONNAME. ninety:one 14:45, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Number of MPs (infobox)

I think they have 366 now. Emperor Theodosius (talk) 17:56, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

It has already been incremented from 364 --> 365.  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 19:12, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 May 2021

May I ask the Wikipedia's directors to allow me to edit the Conservative Party's wikipedia article. Thank you very much. Smoothcheeks (talk) 06:14, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Hi @Smoothcheeks:, we don't grant edit access to individual accounts. Instead you are automatically able to edit the article when you become extended-confirmed (account 30 days old and has made at least 500 edits). The function you used above is if you want to request specific changes to the article. — Czello 06:58, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 May 2021

Change "centre-right to right" 81.178.136.106 (talk) 07:40, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done This has been discussed before; please establish a consensus for making this change. — Czello 08:13, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Ideology: Populism

Bearing in mind the references to the Conservative party in the Populism topic and also that PM Johnson campaigned for Brexit (a populist policy in its own right bearing in mind the links with Farage et al) on the basis of anti-elitism, should Populism be added to the party's ideological stances? NorthYorksChris (talk) 17:11, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

No, as this appears to be WP:OR. The party isn't described as populist enough in sources to justify it being in the infobox. — Czello ^{(Please tag me in replies)} 18:03, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Hi @Czello:. There are plenty of reputable sources out there that say the Conservative Party have adopted populism. The former Chancellor, Ken Clarke, recently described the party as being populist for their policy of building a "Royal Yacht" (now to be a military vessel). The Australian Institute of International Affairs has written an article about the Conservative Party adopting populist policies and rhetoric. Professor Tim Bale of Queen Mary University London has also published an article in this vein. There's plenty out there from reputable authors. At the moment, the Conservative Party is far from being a centrist-right party in the same way as the CDU in Germany for example. What is the pivotal point where they are formally defined as populist having adopted so much populist rhetoric and policies? Like this perhaps? NorthYorksChris (talk) 18:36, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Hi, so keep in mind that an ideology in the infobox needs to broadly describe the party from top to bottom -- wings of the party, the current leadership, or contentious labels that don't accurately describe the overall positioning of the party would be WP:UNDUE to put in the infobox, and should instead be labels attached to the current government or the PM (and, indeed, that is mentioned at Conservative_Party_(UK)#Boris_Johnson_(2019–present)). However, going through your links: firstly, Ken Clarke's opinion would again be undue weight -- and besides, he was calling the yacht populist, not the whole party. The AIIA link doesn't support the claim that the party is populist in fact it even says Right-wing populist parties did not fare well in the recent British elections. It's clearly talking about UKIP and BXP. I also can't see where the third link calls the party populist -- in fact they seem to say Conservative politicians flirted with populism but rarely went further. So I remain unconvinced that there a clear agreement among commentators that the party is in fact populist.

(As a side note, I notice you tried to tag me a few times -- thanks, but something they don't tell you is that you need to re-sign your comment when you do so, otherwise it doesn't send the ping). — Czello ^{(Please tag me in replies)} 16:29, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Change political position to say "Centre-right to right-wing"

I have done this. Lbc07 (talk) 18:19, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

I think this is a reasonable change given the well-documented shift towards the Right. While this is not reflective of all of the Conservative elected representatives, those such as the European Research Group could reasonably be referred to as right-wing. Thoughts? -Internet is Freedom (talk) 15:59, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm happy with this change as long as you can find a few decent sources (ideally international ones) which refer to the party as a whole as right-wing. Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 09:33, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

I support this proposal as long overdue and a clear improvement of the current wording, although in my opinion we should ideally go a step further. The party left the mainstream conservatives (the group that includes the CDU/CSU of Germany and The Republicans of France) many years ago when it joined an EP group that has at various times consisted of openly far-right anti-immigrant parties like the Alternative for Germany, the True Finns and the Danish People's Party, some of which have ties to Neo-Nazism. The Conservative Party in the UK may have been a conservative party (in the European sense) in the past, but there has been a shift towards being primarily a right-wing nationalist party, that has been remarked on by many commentators, and in recent years also an increasing overlap with the far right, with people like Jacob Rees-Mogg who openly supports far-right parties in Europe such as the AfD. The most accurate description today would probably be "a right-wing and partially far-right political party in the United Kingdom." This is also pretty much in line with how parties that the Conservative Party (UK) has had formal cooperation with, such as the AfD, are described ("a right-wing to far-right political party in Germany"). --Tataral (talk) 17:00, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Quick attempt at finding a few refs:

The Irish Times (2019): "The right-wing Tory Party once presented itself as the pragmatic party of business. Now it’s a radical separatist sect populated by clownish demagogues." [7]

The Guardian (2019): "[the party] has today been hijacked by the radicals. It no longer has space for the Keynesianism of Rab Butler or the liberalism of Francis Pym. It is the home of the radical right." [8]

CNBC (2017): "Theresa May, Britain’s current premier and leader of the right-wing Conservative party" [9]

The British Council (2015): "The Conservative party is a right-wing party which promotes lowering taxes by reducing the size of government." [10]

Book 'Muslims in British Local Government' (2014): "The Conservative Party is a right-wing party that advocates smaller government and lower taxes at both the local and national levels." [11]

TSP (talk) 17:19, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Those are passing descriptions, at least some of them polemical, not considered analyses. With regards Tataral's argument, the EPP are not conservatives and most definitely are not "mainstream centre right" from a UK perspective. The EPP is a Christian Democrat Europhile body (with some of its own rum members). Hence the Conservatives and the EPP have never been happy friends (it was the EPP who turned down the first attempt at a hookup) and this got worse with the increased federalist drive around the time of the constitution/Lisbon Treaty. A Eurosceptic party tends to approach its place in the EU Parliament as a matter of pragmatism based on its approach to the EU, not some general statement of political principle on some broader continental spectrum (that's a product of a Europhile approach). Mentioning the AfD is tarring by association - the AfD began as very much a professors' Eurosceptic party and when it veered off to the far right most of its MEPs deserted and it was expelled from the ECR. And Rees-Mogg was clear he does not support them. Timrollpickering (Talk) 20:52, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Your assertions about the European People's Party are wrong. Our own article describes it primarily as a coalition of "conservative and liberal-conservative member parties." It is universally considered centre-right, and at the very least the main centre-right group, if not the only centre-right group in the EP. Postwar-era Christian democracy is for all practical purposes the dominant form of centre-right conservatism in certain countries, like Germany, but these parties (e.g. the CSU) are also widely described simply as conservative.

It is a fact that the Conservative Party (UK) is a member of a group that is entirely dominated by parties not considered "centre-right" by any serious scholars or commentators, i.e. parties widely considered right-wing nationalist to far-right. They have not only included the AfD (now regarded as far-right with neo-Nazi elements for several years), but also the anti-immigrant True Finns and the anti-immigrant, far-right Danish People's Party, and various hard-right parties in Eastern/Central Europe. The fact that their new friends and partners were a hodgepodge of far right parties, some with links to Neo-Nazism, was in fact discussed in the media already ten years ago when the Conservative Party (UK) left the EPP. And regarding the AfD, British media have repeatedly highlighted the support of key Tory politicians, like Rees-Mogg, for the AfD as recently as this year[12], so it's not simply a thing of the past, when the party was supposedly the German equivalent of UKIP. When they form a group with a bunch of clearly far-right parties, they can't expect to be considered "centre-right".

The article you are linking to, titled "Leaving the EPP will be truly revolutionary," is written by Daniel Hannan. As The Independent notes, "earlier this year [...] Daniel Hannan endorsed Dutch white nationalist politician Thierry Baudet, an adherent of the “cultural Marxism” conspiracy theory."[13]

Wikipedia is an international encyclopedia and we are writing from an international perspective here, not from a UK perspective any more than we are writing from a German or French perspective. Wikipedia is not based in the UK and doesn't favour UK perspectives over other perspectives. From a broader, European perspective, this party and its formal partners in the EP are not widely regarded as centre-right, but as parties on the right-wing to far-right spectrum. --Tataral (talk) 23:43, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Upon leaving the Conservative Party (UK) today, which resulted in the party losing its parliamentary majority, Phillip Lee noted that the party is "infected with the twin diseases of populism and English nationalism,"[14] which is yet another example of the shift in how the party is perceived, and especially in how it is now viewed primarily as an English nationalist party rather than a centre-right conservative party. --Tataral (talk) 19:37, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Just came across this discussion and it is clear that on any scale that the conservatives are a right wing party. Have there been any sources cited to suggest they're centre right? This seems the position that needs defending as it's mealy mouthed at best. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.98.85.52 (talk) 11:02, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

Reply to unsigned IP. Suggest you look ar organisations supporting Conservatives - such as Bright Blue. In no way could they be classed as purely "right wing", therefore present description should stand. If you are going to make a "contribution", please ensure you sign it. Thank you, David J Johnson (talk) 11:26, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

It seems to me that there is consensus here to do something with the current, nonsensical description of the party as only "centre-right," at the very least to include the "right-wing" descriptor. I would prefer "right-wing to far-right", but perhaps the latter description needs more discussion. --Tataral (talk) 21:51, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

I agree. At the very least the UK Conservative party should be described using [Populist] National Conservatism discriptors. Centre-right certainly no longer applies since the 2010 general election and the application of (arguably) discredited austerity [15] policies by David Cameron [16]. Some strong and high profile powerful MPs (including Johnson, Gove, Duncan Smith and Mogg) are far right and have even called themselves the Grand Wizards [17]. Johnson has made many racist and homophobic statements;too many to list here, however his staunch anti-immigration attitude is very clear [18] [19] and the party supports the far-right Orban government in Hungary [20]. The Conservatives flagship 'Hostile Environment' policy is arguably a far-right policy [21] designed, in conjunction with austerity, to punish the poor, as suggested in harsh critisism by the UN's special rapporteur [22] and the UN Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights [23]. Many high profile and powerful Conservative MPs advocate foodbanks [24], insurance based healthcare [25] and forced labour [26]. The staunchly right wing European Research Group is considered to be a reasonably powerful party within a party that is a driver of Conservative policy. One could argue that it's constant pressure on Theresa May was a major contributor to her failure to deliver Brexit and eventual resignation [27]. And of course, the Conservatives promote Laissez-faire right wing policy of opening of markets, including the NHS to US companies [28]. One could argue that Johnsons illegal prorogation of Parliament [29] was a deliberate attempt to push through a No-Deal-Brexit at the behest of the US trade representative as requested in the fore mentioned leaked US-UK trade documents [30]. This would have been a good example of disaster capitalism if it had been enacted. Many powerful Conservative MPs also associate with Steve Bannon (a well known white supremacist) [31] [32] and there are indications that high profile far right activist Tommy Robinson has recently joined the Conservative Party [33]. Moderate Centre-Right politicians, for example Baroness Warsi, are being sidelined [34]and many have even left the party. Overall, indications are that the UK Conservative party has shifted further to the right of the political spectrum [35] [36]. Nealunreal (talk) 13:11, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Riiiiiggght... So we seem to have reached a concencus here (to change it, which I endorse, mainstream European conservative parties don't form alliances with crypto-neo-fascist parties such as Alternative for Deutschland), so can we change it now? Dylan109 (talk) 21:15, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Three different leftists sending five paragraphs to each other is not a consensus. It's in your own delusion that the Conservatives are far-right, which would is only reserved for Fascist parties. As far as I am concerned, the quote Fascism is when you leave the European Union, cannot be attributed to Benito Mussolini or Giovanni Gentile. Euroscepticism is not even a right wing ideology - several left wing parties are Eurosceptic. So sorry, but you are completely wrong and living in your own delusion. Azaan Habib 22:56, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Ooft. Okay, so yes, the above five paragraphs are a bunch of leftists (myself included) rambling on about how much they hate the Conservative party, and how it's full of white supremacists, and how it's islamophobic, and so on. But I think it's fair to say that there has definitely been a shift to the right since at least BoJo's election in 2019. For example, the party's immigration policy is far more conservative than that of mainstream centre-right European parties. The same goes for it's defence policy. And it's justice policy. The list goes on. However, the Conservatives are certainly not "right to far-right." UKIP is right to far-right. They want to bring back the belt and the death sentence. They want to illegalise same-sex marriage. THAT is far-right. "Small c" conservatives might argue that the Tories are actually very moderate, but what's important to bear in mind is that American politics is MUCH further right than UK politics - the politics of Prageru and the Republican party come in line with the politics of UKIP, which is right to far-right. The Tories may seem socialist in comparison to them, but compared to other mainstream European centre-right parties, the Tories are to the right. DEFINITELY. The Tories are centre-right to right wing. Dylan109 (talk) 19:57, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

I have restored "centre-right to right" as a compromise, based on the above discussion. However, if there is further resistance to this then I propose we remove the ideological position until a consensus is reached, in the same way the Democratic Party (United States) page has done. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HMWikiSoldier (talk • contribs) 18:38, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

I've also added a list of factions to the ideology box to provide some obvious context for the rationale for the change to centre-right to right wing

Hi, firstly please don't edit war. I appreciate your good faith edits, but as per WP:BRD we need to establish consensus first, especially given that there have been arguments about this in the past. Secondly, as per my edit summary I've removed the factions from the infobox as it's overloading it with superfluous information (which is repeated later in the article). We have a pretty lengthy section on it already, so we don't need to duplicate info (and also I don't believe the populism ideology is sourced at all). — Czello 19:16, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Hello, please don't edit war either. I think centre-right to right is the correct appropriate approach to take as it is the most inclusive of the consensus because it still includes centre-right first and foremost, yet also accounts for the convincing arguments made to suggest there are right-wing elements in the party, particularly in recent times. On this basis, kindly please accept this attempt I am making to implement a best-fit in regards to the consensus above.

As a follow up, please let me know your suggestions so we can avoid an edit war whilst respecting the above consensus / discussion.

I take it you've still not read WP:BRD; reverting to the status quo when there's a dispute is normal. Secondly, I couldn't see where in your citation it states that there's been a rightward shift in the party, can you copy and paste it please? Additionally, I think you're going to need more than a singular source that demonstrates this. As you can see above, it has to be more than a passing description; given that the party has been considered centre-right for the longest time, changing it to centre-right to right-wing is a declaration that there has been a definitive movement in the party. Can you demonstrate this with further sources? Also you have not addressed my comment regarding the ideological factions. In answer to your question about my suggestion: I suggest we revert to the status quo while this debate is ongoing: you're presently trying to alter the article to your preferred version without consensus. If we achieve consensus then sure, let's include your version. Until that time I think the decent thing for you to do, as per WP:BRD, is to temporarily undo your own edit. There's no urgency: we can take the time to discuss this here. — Czello 19:33, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. Firstly, I think it is important for us all to accept that the factions I have cited are just that, factions not representative of the whole party. These factions do occupy a more rightward position and are incredibly influential historically and contemporarily. Therefore instead of classifying the entire party as right or centre-right, right to centre-right is a compromise that also carries the broadest consensus from the discussion above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HMWikiSoldier (talk • contribs) 19:41, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

This sounds very much like your own PoV on things. Who says they occupy a more rightward position? Why are they more rightward now then a few years ago? Do you have citations for this? Also, you haven't pasted the material I requested above from your citation, nor provided a citation for the populism claim. — Czello 19:43, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Cited below on this talk page: "Centre-Right to Right-Wing: Centre-right parties which contain nationalistic or socially Conservative elements, sometimes religious wings. A good example is the People's Party from Spain." Clearly, the party contains socially conservative elements and debatably nationalistic elements. I will remove populism, as I feel that is the most hotly contested of the factional descriptions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HMWikiSoldier (talk • contribs) 19:48, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

This is your own interpretation of things. If you want that to be the presentation of the page you will first need to adequately source everything you are claiming and then achieve consensus. — Czello 19:51, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Ditto HMWikiSoldier (talk) 20:31, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Not sure why it is an appropriate to revert my changes as there are a majority of contributors on this talk page in favour of adopting centre-right to right-wing, as seen on the Conservative Party of Canada where there were similar disputes. This may need to be elevated to arbitration or a resolution forum as it appears you have persistently vetoed all attempts to implement the majority verdict. Crunchynotsmooth (talk) 21:45, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Claiming the Conservative Party is right-wing, some wanting far-right instead - tarring as Neo-Nazism or Neo-fascism, stating this as a "reasonable change" and claiming consensus after only the first four original responses in agreement is not a consensus. Also, some editors continue adding centre-right to right-wing without sources just that it is a *fact*. So not in favour of adopting centre-right to right-wing. MrDevonshire (talk) 22:39, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

I agree that any suggestion the party is a far-right, neo-Nazi or neo-fascist is ludicrous. However, there are factions in the party which are right-wing. As cited on this talk page, "Centre-Right to Right-Wing: Centre-right parties which contain nationalistic or socially Conservative elements, sometimes religious wings. A good example is the People's Party from Spain". The Conservative Party does fall into said category, as it has contained socially conservative sections since creation and also does contain Christian factions, clearly placing the party in the centre-right to right-wing category already and that is before recent events have even been considered, such as the party's right-wing populist rhetoric and the incumbent Conservative Home Secretary support for the death penalty. Additionally, from looking at similar pages which have been the subject of similar disputes, such as Conservative Party of Canada, it can be seen that there is precedent for such an approach. Crunchynotsmooth (talk) 22:48, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

BDD (incumbent on the arbitration committee) has reviewed the talk page and stated “I think it's reasonable to say there's consensus on the talk page for such a change”. Although this a non-binding judgement, it shows that should this be moved up to official arbitration that it is likely the judgement would be in favour of such a change. On that basis, I shall implement the change. Crunchynotsmooth (talk) 13:16, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

I object to changing the Conservative Party to "Centre-right to right-wing." The British Conservative Party is far more culturally progressive than the mainstream conservative parties in South Korea and Japan, and unlike the LDP, key figures do not defend the fascism of the interwar period. If the Conservative Party is right-wing, PPP or LDP should be considered a far-right party.--Storm598 (talk) 07:18, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

I too object to changing their infobox political position from "Centre-right" to "Right-wing." Within the contexts of both UK politics and internationally (e.g. compared to the United States Republican Party), they are clearly still centre-right. This can be seen in matters such as their support for same-sex marriage and abortion rights, support for the single-payer NHS system (notwithstanding their ongoing efforts to privatize much of it), and relatively moderate positions on trans rights and immigration. While the party may have moved to the right since the end of the second Cameron ministry, overall they're clearly still a centre-right party. That may change in the future, but at this time there's clearly been insufficient movement to warrant a change. -- ROADKILL (talk) 22:46, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Proposition to change "Economic liberalism" to "Classical liberalism" in the infobox

Hello everyone! Proposing the change listed above; I understand it would require changing the source(s), but to get to it, economic liberalism is not an ideology, but an idea, however economic liberalism ties directly into classical liberalism, which itself is an ideology. This change could also further differentiate it from the Lib Dems who are listed as socially liberal, and help intrigue people to the differences between the two parties. But the change is proposed more on the basis that economic liberalism is not an ideology, while classical liberalism is. Thoughts? B. M. L. Peters (talk) 06:43, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Oppose I don't think all Conservative members are classical liberals. The faction of the Conservative Party is divided into Thatcherist, one-nation conservative and liberal conservative. The economic position of the Thatcherists is close to classical liberalism. However, Thatcherists have a very strong social conservative tendency, so it is difficult to see them as general classical liberalism. One-nation conservatives are more of a centrist, but they are traditionally difficult to see as classical liberals. The only people's who can be considered classical liberalism are the liberal conservatives. In addition, there are close Third Way(de facto social liberals) like Tony Blair in the Labor Party, so it is not fair.--Storm598 (talk) 11:22, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Oppose Per Storm598. While economic liberalism is a broad descriptor that can be used to define the party as a whole, classical liberalism doesn't as it includes non-economic elements. Inclusion would give undue weight to the classical liberal members of the party. — Czello 11:32, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Oppose. If anything it's the Orange Bookers (the right wing of the Lib Dems) who are the "classical liberals". "Economic liberalism" captures most of the ground covered by the Tories. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 13:02, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Oppose Classical liberalism is much broader than economic liberalism. For instance, it also means support for loosened immigration policy and increased civil liberties. While the Conservatives may be more liberal on subjects like these compared to the US Republican Party for instance, it would be irreverent to call them liberals on those and other non-economic matters. — ROADKILL (talk) 07:33, 18 November 2021 (UTC)