Talk:Charlie Tickle

Charlie Tickle

Hi Struway2

Could I just ask you something about the Charlie Tickle article you created back in April 2008? The article says his full name was Charles Howard Tickle and that he was born at Northfield in 1884, but the only entry in the G.R.O. birth index I can find in the Kings Norton registration district (which covered Northfield) is for a Charles Henry Tickle in the December quarter of 1883 – could this be Charlie??

Regards (Lepidus Magnus (talk) 21:41, 29 June 2009 (UTC))

Hi, it would seem likely that he is the Charles Henry Tickle born in the December quarter of 1883 rather than in 1884. As you may well be aware from your interest in things Birmingham-related, BCFC's records were destroyed during the Second World War, so there are no "official" names, dates of birth, etc for their early players. Of the two sources cited in the article, Matthews gives the full name as Charles Howard, but Joyce gives only Charles H.; unfortunately Matthews does have a history of minor guesswork where full names are concerned. As only the year of birth is given in the sources, they're probably estimating, and 1884 would be an understandable estimate if he had been born right at the end of the Dec 1883 quarter: if a newspaper report had mentioned, say, a 25-year-old Tickle in mid-December 1909, the odds would be greatly in favour of an 1884 birth. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 08:24, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Hello Struway2

I’ve been having a look at some of the on-line census returns and it does seem Charlie Tickle’s full name was actually Charles Henry Tickle and not Charles Howard. The newly released 1911 census clearly has him down as Charles Henry, with his occupation as ‘Professional footballer’ and living at 187 Maryvale Road on Bournville with his parents. Although the census has him as being born in Selly Oak, given the family were living in Bournbrook for the previous two censuses (in 1901 they were at 53 Exeter Road, and in 1891 at 50 Heeley Road) I think there’s a good chance he was born in Bournbrook rather in Selly Oak itself; which would also explain why he appears to have played for Bournbrook F.C. as well. I’ll make a couple of changes to the entry in light of all of this then.

Regards (Lepidus Magnus (talk) 10:11, 30 June 2009 (UTC))

Hi Struway2

Changed Charlie Tickle’s full name to Charles Henry, and his year of birth to 1883. I’ve also made a few minor changes, and added a link to the entry from that for Bournbrook – hope that’s all alright with you? If I find out anymore about Charlie I’ll be sure to add it to his entry.

Regards (Lepidus Magnus (talk) 11:04, 30 June 2009 (UTC))

P.S. One small point - technically Charlie wouldn’t have been born in Birmingham, as Bournbrook, Selly Oak, Northfield, Kings Norton, etc., were all still in Worcestershire at this date. They only became part of Brum in 1911. (Lepidus Magnus (talk) 11:36, 30 June 2009 (UTC))

If you have a reliable source for his birth in Selly Oak, then please would you add that to the article, otherwise I'll restore Northfield, which is consistent with the GRO and has secondary sources, although I will clarify it as the Worcestershire parish which is only now a Birmingham suburb. I don't really think it's reasonable to extrapolate a birthplace from where his family was living eight years later. I've got a bit more info that can go in later. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 12:18, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Hello Struway2

Many thanks for getting back to me about things. I’ve now found Charlie’s parents, William and Mary Ann Tickle, living at Regents Place in Bournbrook in the 1881 census. So given the family were in Bournbrook in both the census before his birth and that afterwards I think it’s pretty safe to assume he was born there; and without actually buying a copy of his birth certificate I think this is as near as I can get at the moment. Northfield was the old ecclesiastical parish that at one time stretched as far north as Bournbrook, and in 1881 Bournbrook appears to have still come under the civil parish of Northfield - so maybe this would account for some of the confusion? At this time the area also seems to have been part of the ecclesiastical district of St Stephens Selly Hill (now Selly Park), though a separate church for Bournbrook was consecrated in 1906 and it became a distinct parish in 1911. All in all I personally think it would be a safe bet that he was born somewhere in Bournbrook.

Regards (Lepidus Magnus (talk) 12:52, 30 June 2009 (UTC))

Don't think there is any confusion: Mr Matthews presumably has a reason for believing him born somewhere in the Northfield parish and/or registration sub-district, which covered Bournbrook/Selly Oak at that date, but had no more precise information. And if I were a betting man, I'd agree it seems likely that he was born in Bournbrook. But from a Wikipedia:No original research angle, especially as the census says Selly Oak, it strikes me as a step too far to declare it as a fact. The census data has him raised in the area, so to all intents and purposes he's "from" Bournbrook, wherever he actually drew his first breath. Matter of interest, if you have access to the 1901 census, does it say what he was doing for a living at that date? cheers, Struway2 (talk) 13:34, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Hi Struway2

I’m afraid because I’m only an infrequent contributor to Wikipedia, I’ll have to rely on you to do what you think is best as far as the rules and regulations are concerned. Kings Norton registration district was rather large, so as you say maybe Tony Matthews had access to some other information which narrowed things down a bit to just the Northfield sub-district (though by the same token it does seem he got his middle name wrong!). The only way to be certain would be to get a copy birth certificate of course, and perhaps when I have some spare money I might do this. The census evidence is suggestive, what with the family at Regents Place Bournbrook in 1881, and at 50 Heeley Road in 1891 - no doubt Charlie would have certainly thought of himself as a Bournbrook lad. As for his occupation in 1901, when they were at 53 Exeter Road, it looks to be a “Stencil cutter”; if that’s any help?

Regards (Lepidus Magnus (talk) 14:00, 30 June 2009 (UTC))

We're probably trying to be too precise here. How's about forgetting Northfield entirely, putting birthplace as Kings Norton, and raised in Bournbrook, both then in Worcestershire, now in Birmingham? True and sourced, birthplace to the GRO reference, family addresses to the census data. Then if anyone finds out anything definite about his place of birth, they can change it. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 15:02, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Hello Struway2

Yes that would be one way round things, or alternatively we could say something like:

   Charles Henry Tickle (born 1883, deceased) was an English professional footballer who was better known to the sporting
      word as Charlie Tickle.  Tickle was born in north Worcestershire and raised in Bournbrook, which became part
      of Birmingham in 1911.

Anyroad, as I say, I’ll leave that to you – here are the census references for information: 1881 census ref. for Regents Place Bournbrook is RG11/2953, f. 4, p. 5; 1891 census ref. for 50 Heeley Road is RG12/2356. f. 114, p. 37; 1901 census ref. for 53 Exeter Road is RG13/2808, f. 133, p. 49; and 1911 census ref. for 187 Mary Vale Road, Bournville, is RG14/17841, Schedule No. 236.

Interestingly I’ve also now come across a newspaper article that was in the Birmingham Post on 8 September 2001, p. 31, by Brian Halford entitle ‘St Andrew’s waiting for another Tickle’, in which he says he was “Bournville-born”!! I think I’d best get the birth certificate after all, because it seems to me that the published sources just aren’t particularly accurate when it comes to his place of birth.

Regards (Lepidus Magnus (talk) 16:30, 30 June 2009 (UTC))