Talk:Charles W. Mills

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Death reported here: https://dailynous.com/2021/09/20/charles-mills-1951-2021/ should be added to main article.

Bio on UIC website: http://www.uic.edu/depts/phil/bios/mills.htm 143.229.138.131 18:29, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

UIC bio no longer exists, as Mills has moved to Northwestern. Someone should change the link. --76.193.180.199 13:29, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Mills now has an additional book: Contract and Domination (Polity Press, 2007), co-authored with Carole Pateman.Philprof (talk) 22:27, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

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Charles W. Mills Nationality

Good Day Guys,

I've been editing parts of Mills' page for years now. I am concerned about his nationality being designated American. Mills was a Caribbean Philosopher and Jamaican. Even though he was born in the UK and became an American citizen, he was raised by Caribbean parents and spoke with a distinct Jamaican accent. He was also raised in Jamaica and his Philosophical work contributed greatly to the Caribbean. Especially, in Blackness visible which is studied as a staple in Caribbean Philosophy at The University of The West Indies where his father was a lecturer.

Caribbean Philosopher (talk) 17:58, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Caribbean Philosopher, can you please find a reliable source calling him "Caribbean" or "Jamaican"? We need WP:RS for every claim made in an article. I think American is more appropriate because (1) we have sources stating that he is an American citizen; and (2) he taught for the majority of his career in the US. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 18:08, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

I already gave you sufficient evidence. He literally grew up in Jamaica. His alma mater is The University of The West Indies which is the Caribbean's premier University. It is a regional university. His work centres on the use of race as base for non-ideal theory as an alternative to Western Liberalism. Most of his work utilises colonial realities based in the Caribbean. Please see Radical Theory, Caribbean Reality: Race, Class and Social Domination by Charles W. Mills. He is literally Jamaican. To classify him as American because he gained American citizenship is to deny his entire family, his heritage and his work. He is taught as a staple throughout Caribbean academia and his work is literally foundational in Caribbean Philosophy. You can find his address to the American Philosophical Association here where he repeatedly speaks about the Caribbean as his foundation. https://blog.apaonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/2016-central-dewey-text.pdf . Again in Blackness Visible he did the same. He is a person with whom I corresponded. Please stop watering down his heritage. The man is Caribbean Philosopher from Jamaica. Are you trying to say that all of the Caribbean scholars like Paget Henry, who literally wrote the Book on Caribbean Philosophy, are American just because of citizenship? People can have dual citizenship. Citizenship and nationality are two different things. Literally in law as well.

Caribbean Philosopher (talk) 21:38, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

I just gave you his own work and his biographical information as the most reliable facts. Yet, you are telling me you "feel" American is most appropriate because he had American citizenship. Where are your facts? Do you know anything about the Caribbean reality? Most of the Caribbean population lives outside of the Caribbean and will take up nationality where they live while still being Caribbean.

Caribbean Philosopher (talk) 21:41, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Furthermore Professor Mills teaching in the USA for most of his life is not a valid reason. Are Egyptian academics, British because they teach in the UK for most of their lives? His work literally advocated for his race based on Caribbean history. His work speaks for itself. I have been editing the nationality section of his wiki for years. I was in contact with him. I am in contact with many of his peers. I am a student of his work. He was a contributor to The University of The West Indies. You have not given any facts and I have. Let us now find consensus that he is a Caribbean Philosopher from Jamaica.

Please see this video interview of him as well https://amherstmedia.org/content/difficult-dialogues-dr-charles-w-mills-pt1 and the description of him as a Philosopher from Jamaica.

To call him American is to disgrace him, his family, his heritage, Jamaica and the Caribbean. Please stop.

Caribbean Philosopher (talk) 21:54, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Neither your or my personal views are relevant—about Mills or anyone else—nor is original research based on your analysis of Mills's writings. My source is this interview, where he says:

But I'm Black and an American citizen, and I certainly identify with and have tried to support in my work, the long Black American struggle for racial equality and justice.

There is one passage, on page 103 of the lecture you cite, in which Mills says … and my fellow Caribbean, Bernard Boxill. That could be evidence that Mills identified as Caribbean but is not as explicit as the statement in the source I cite. Again, Wikipedia is built on clear statements in reliable sources, not synthesis of published material or original research. I will see if I can get input from others about their opinions. Please do not change his nationality in the article until we have achieved WP:CONSENSUS. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 22:01, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

These are not personal views. These are facts. You came and changed his nationality without consulting anyone when I was the one who actually had his nationality correct. It's literally in his biography. His family is from Jamaica. He grew up in Jamaica. His first degree is from Jamaica. His work is based on the history of the Caribbean. He literally spoke with a Jamaican accent. You are not even making sense now.

Caribbean Philosopher (talk) 22:05, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

His second degree is from the University of Toronto and he was born in London. Should we call him Canadian or British? Again, we need reliable sources that expressly describe him as Caribbean or American (or anything else). I don't think a caption in a capsule interview bio calling him a philosopher from Jamaica is sufficient. I think it is probably best to leave nationality out entirely as the sources do not clearly ascribe a nationality to him. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 22:11, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

While I replied to every point you made, you picked and chose which ones of mine you preferred for a reply. You are clearly living in an alternate reality when you can say that a man with a Jamaican accent, who grew up in Jamaica, with his family being from Jamaica, who based his work on Caribbean reality and has his work added to the Caribbean's premier University's Caribbean Philosophy Course is anything but Caribbean.

By the way, this is not just about nationality. This is about the tradition of his work and what it addressed. You clearly are missing the point but you go ahead and contribute more to the colonial mentality that pervades the world. Enjoy.

Caribbean Philosopher (talk) 22:30, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Please stop your personal attacks. As to the merits of our discussion, I think "Caribbean-American" is the best fit. It's the term he used to describe himself: see this page (page 172), in an essay republished from JSTOR 26770019. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 22:31, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

There are no personal attacks here. What you are doing is obscuring history. I've given you facts and supplied even more but you maintain your stance without good reason. There's no much more to say on this.

Caribbean Philosopher (talk) 22:46, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

OP is correct. Per WP:CONTEXTBIO, we use the nationality held at the time the subject became notable. As the subject became notable well before being naturalized, they should be represented as Jamaican. Skyerise (talk) 04:01, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Adding PhD and Dr. thoughout article

Hi, new to editing here Wanting to reach out about rules or ideals around noting someone's degree when referencing them. I noticed that there is no use of Dr. or mention of PhD in the article currently, though his education is mentioned. Thoughts on this? Is this an edit I should just go for? Thanks all Lbatesro (talk) 19:53, 14 October 2023 (UTC)