Talk:Castellania (Valletta)

Wikipedia on news

Part of this article about the hook was used on a website. It gave contributions to this article.Continentaleurope (talk) 16:51, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Use of wikipedia text

• As happened before with the same journal, they made use of the article text without acknowledgement (see)
• Others did

Fountain

User:Rrobotto has added the following but was removed: Among the features of this building, the Palace's courtyard features a statue which purportedly represents Diana, the pagan goddess of the moon and hunting, and protector of slaves, the plebeians, childbirth and virgin women. The statue lies within a niche crowned with the coat of arms of Grand Master Pinto, and ornate with few symbols, among which two quivers of arrows on either side and pine cones are conspicuous features which are associated with this myth. The goddess stands on a pedestal and holds a knife on her left hand, ready to cut away the lower portion of her vest as if in preparation for the hunt. The statue deviates from classical portrayals since as a goddess of hunting, Diana often wears a short tunic and hunting boots. She is often portrayed holding a bow, and carrying a quiver on her shoulder, accompanied by a deer or hunting dogs.("Artemis". Retrieved 2012-11-11.) The crescent moon, sometimes worn as a diadem, is a major attribute of the goddess. The crescent moon was also the symbol associated with the Grand Master Pinto and the statue may have served as a personification of his values. Furthermore, worship of Diana is mentioned in the Bible. In Acts of the Apostles, Ephesian metal smiths who felt threatened by Saint Paul’s preaching of Christianity, jealously rioted in her defense, shouting “Great is Diana of the Ephesians!” (Acts 19:28, New English Bible). After the city secretary (γραμματεύς) quieted the crowd, he said, “Men of Ephesus, what person is there who does not know that the city of the Ephesians is the keeper (guardian) of the temple of the great Diana and of her image that fell from heaven ?" (Acts 19:36).

It may be interesting for further research but needs clarification and direct reference to the fountain to be mentioned and described. No need to give excessive details about the goddess -maybe similar to Lady Justice and Prudentia - and then link to main article for further detail.Continentaleurope (talk) 23:01, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

Added info

I have just added some information about the building in the lead but requires expansion in the body.Continentaleurope (talk) 00:00, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

@Continentaleurope: I just rewrote the article, and included the info you added into the body. I tried to limit the references to books, journals, newspapers and official info from government websites, so I removed a number of sources in the process. Please take a look at the article, and feel free to add any sources or info which I might have removed. Best regards, Xwejnusgozo (talk) 15:38, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Is it good enough to nominate it for GA? If there is no source for the re-discovery of the church remains please remove it. The article misses the mentioning of the fountaim unless I missed it. Maybe some examples of court cases? Well done. I will post further info here.Continentaleurope (talk) 16:16, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

@Xwejnusgozo: Found the source for the church finding on 20 August 1991 by the Glormu Cassar school. The church was inaugurated for the first time in 1760 as said in the source of Bliet u Rhula Maltin. It further says that the church finding and some cells were restored in that year (this is true). Another source I found says the façade was planned to be restored in the 1990s but never materialized from what I see. An important sentence that was removed was the mentioning of the depiction of the coat-of-arms of several knights at the main hall upstairs. It also had a citation. It is the most decorative room at the building and should not go unmentioned. I have taken pictures of the room and clearly appear on it. Thanks again.Continentaleurope (talk) 16:45, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

@Continentaleurope: I added some info about the 1990s restoration, the Sala Nobile (I also added one of your pictures of the room in the article) and the fountain. I didn't mention that the chapel was inaugurated in November 1760 since that's the date the whole building was completed. I think the article is almost ready for GA status, I'll nominate it soon. Best regards, Xwejnusgozo (talk) 09:37, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Furthur improvement

@Xwejnusgozo: The laboratory is open as a small museum known as The Brucellosis Museum [1]. This museum should merit a small article but should not be entirely covered in this article since there is enough information for a separate article. Or maybe it should?

Should there be some examples of court cases? Some of the cases heard are quite interesting apart from the rising of the priest.

Legacy about Nelson's hook? Triq il-Ganc, In-Nizla tal-Ganc. There is enough info for a long article for the hook alone.

The sala nobile is now known as the board room and the palace is open yearly in notte bianca together with recitation and other. [2] The hall has only the coat-of-arms of the knights that served as Castellani. [3]

The shops were build for the purpose to be shops, and eight in all. Beneath there is the mezzanine. On the main entrance there are clear crescent-like symbols representing Pinto. The scales of the figure was lost over the years (and this is clearly seen on my pics too). There are also two other minor figures. The convict Gianna had decorated the chapel at the building. He was hanged at the building.The façade gives the feeling that the building is symmetrical but the position of the courtyard and other clearly shows it is not.[4] The chapel was consecrated on 15 November 1760 [5]

The two minor figures were meant to appearing receiving the bust of Pinto [6] third page.

Gran Corte Della Castellania. They used a set of book as law codes. The source I used for the inscription is found in the melitensia source but the DOM is not precisely found on the inscroption but Deo Opt. Max. [7]

At one point it was the Ministry for Energy and Health [8].

Location maybe? 15, Merchant Street Valletta [9]

Remember to mention the dungeon of the Castellania [10]. I took a photo of the room leading to there but do not use it ha ha.

Prestige building?[11]

Marble used for construction? No it is just for decoration. In that case marble is used for flooring and was used for other building in Valletta. I think it makes no sense in the box.

The statue of Lady Justice should have more info about it in article. Apart from its description the statues appeard on several book club vers [12][13] third page.

Other legacy or related is that the façade appears on several artistic works [14]

The designs were ready by 1748 according to several sources [15]. Did it take 9 years to start work on it? (1757) All what I have written here is found in the sources privided. Please verify for yourself. Continentaleurope (talk) 10:19, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

@Continentaleurope: I added some info about The Brucellosis Museum; I don't think a separate article is needed, but if you want to feel free to write it since it would still be useful.

Re the court cases, this article is about the building, not the history of the courts. The cases would be important in an article about the Magna Curia Castellania Melitensis itself, not the building itself. For example, no court cases are mentioned in the Courts of Justice building (Valletta) article, or no inquisition cases are mentioned in the Inquisitor's Palace article (those would be useful in an article about the Inquisition in Malta).

I think just a mention of Nelson's Hook is enough for this article. I agree that there is enough information to merit its own article, although I'm not sure if it is notable enough.

I added some info about the Notte Bianca, the board room and the coats of arms of the Castellani.

I added some info about the shops, the side façade etc.

The bust is already mentioned in the first paragraph below the inscription.

Was Gran Corte Della Castellania an alternative name for Magna Curia Castellania Melitensis?

The health ministry changed its name a number of times; I didn't include any former names since I don't have a list of which names were used at what times.

I added the address as "No. 11–19, Merchants Street" (as mentioned in the NICPMI listing, including both the ministry and the shops)

The prison cells and the graffiti inside is already briefly mentioned in the "Architecture" section, I don't know what else to add for the time being.

I don't understand what you mean by "Prestige building"?

Re the marble, I changed it to "Limestone (façade decorated with marble)". I think it's important to mention the marble, just like limestone is mentioned in Piano's Parliament House which is actually built on a steel frame.

I don't know what else to add re the statue, if you find more info add it to the article.

I don't think it's notable to mention that the Castellania was depicted in a 2005 painting. Many buildings in Valletta (and elsewhere in Malta) were depicted in paintings, engravings etc over the centuries, and I don't think it's necessary to mention that they are depicted in these artworks.

I think 1748 is a typo. All reliable sources state that work began in 1757, Giuseppe Bonici took over after Francesco Zerafa's death in 1758, and the building was completed in 1760. 12 years (1748–60) is far too long for the building to be constructed – comparable buildings such as Auberge de Castille (which is larger) were completed in just 3 years (1741–45).

Best regards, Xwejnusgozo (talk) 19:30, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

• Agree not to mention courtcases but you can say that the sculpturer was 'hanged' at the palace to mention an example what use to happen. The same convict made the alter of the chapel. The only thing there needs to be added about the interior statue of Justice is the three symbols (scale, blindfold, sword.). The crecent of Pinto are everywhere and need to be mentioned (exterior and interior), even though it says everywhere are is found on the statue of justice (inside) sources do not specify this. The hook merits an article for different reason, one of which is because it may have not been part of the building itslef and it is separately a national heritage. Bust only required why there are two figures receiving it but you may omit this info. Some sources use the name Gran court or corte...... where several maritime court cases took place. It is a mistranslation but yes sort of. Marble was also used to decorate the Auberge d italie and grandmaster s palace but not comparable to parliament which is a main material for full facade but it is ok to leave it as it is :). It is ok not to mention depiction. On the façade there is a plaque that implies, and it is true, that it is just known as Ministry for Health (the rest is just a nice wording, but name it as you wish :). I think too much names may make the article bad. Since the french the building started to be called Palais de Justice amd even during the British, Palace of Justice. Dungeon, per source, accessed from courtyard next to fountain (ok to not give this detail as it may not be insource precisely). I believe everything I mentioned in comments is in the souces provided above. Thanks again.

I confirm that it was called Gran Corte della Castellania or G. C. della Castellania or the similar. Every castellan could not serve longer than two years [16]

One further comment, you may opt to add another paragraph in the lead that could include the architecture section. Most featured article of similarity have this.Thanks and nice work. It is good for GA.Continentaleurope (talk) 23:56, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

@Continentaleurope: I added some info about Maestro Gianni, mentioned the Gran Corte della Castellania etc. I agree that the building was probably called "Palace of Justice" or something similar during the early 19th century, but do you have a source about it? I don't know what to write about Pinto's crescents or what else to include in the lead, but if you come up with something please add it to the article. :) Best regards, Xwejnusgozo (talk) 16:29, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

• My photo of a marble at the entrance says it all but no need to include further information. [17]
• Museum inauguration [18]

• It is found next to Casa Dorell and Court of Justice included in this source and also in Maltese as "Il-Qorti tal-Gustizzja" [19]. Maybe some names should go within a note and that is it.

• Note: no need ro include the above, mostly if you wish to include next to Casa Dorell that should have an article some day. Very well written. The fountain setencd part looks a bit lonely. Just to let you know that the fountain is in a courtyard, another courtyard has a well and other courtyards (at least two) are too small and insignificant.

@Xwejnusgozo: I just rewrote the lead with two paragraphs about history and one about architecture. It is an architecture good article nominee, and it is only fairs to mention something in the lead. Please reword as you see fit and when having time consider my last points and please kindly arrange sources as they are suppose to be. One of the books I recently added is a pdf so it could be archived. The website of the ministry is not good to be archived as it only archives the first part rather (try to open it from citation) not entirely, but once you are ready from fixing the sources I will see from the other used sources if they speak about similar theme when the ministry source is used so that I add them as an additional reference (even if this is not necessarily).Continentaleurope (talk) 17:32, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Castellania (Valletta)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Mr rnddude (talk · contribs) 15:30, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Hello, I will be looking to take on the review of this article, expect my full review to be up by tomorrow. Mr rnddude (talk) 15:30, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	Minor issues have been addressed, the below is preserved for accessibility. Minor comments; "As fate would have it" <- eh, too colloquial -> Ironically, ..., or, just "[H]e would become the first man to be convicted of murder and sentenced to death by hanging in the Castellania." "Tribunale Provvisorio" <- A typo I think, Provisorio. "number of purposes" -> number of other purposes "Merchants Street" <- street doesn't need capitalization. (Multiple occurrences) "served as pillory" -> served as a pillory
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.	The article is neatly laid out, the lead section is appropriate, and words to watch are being covered in criterion 4.
2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.	Yes all of the sources are referenced in the appropriate section.
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).	All of the citations are from reliable sources, there are quite a few news citations which are fine and non-controversial. (I have a preference for them to be cited to non-controversial claims)
	2c. it contains no original research.	No apparent original research in the article.
	2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism.	Copyright violation is unlikely, will confirm with a couple sources before passing this criterion. no problems with anything from the easily accessible pdf's.
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.	Covers the subject very well and without going into too much depth.
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).	Article is very focussed with only the most mild drift in some places, and even then only to expand upon a point.
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.	The below has been rectified and preserved for accessibility. Some minor issues; "It is one of the most prominent buildings in Merchants Street" <- Peacock, -> It is one of the prominent buildings in Merchants street, or, It is a prominent building in Merchant street. "it is one of the most prominent buildings in the area" <- again, subjective. As above "The most decorative room" <- non-issue but -> most decorated would perhaps be less evocative.
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.	Not a quick-fail issue, however, since the nomination up to 3rd August there has been considerable discussion on the article's talk page and the article still appears to be under construction to a certain degree having been expanded from 21.6k bytes to 39.1k bytes. That's a relatively overwhelming change in the space of a week since its nomination. Article is now in a stable condition.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.	All of the images are the uploader's own work and have been released in accordance with CC-by-SA 3.0.
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.	All of the images have appropriate captions, one has a red-link, I'm not sure how appropriate that is for an image.
	7. Overall assessment.	An unfortunately drawn out one that didn't particularly need to be, the article is indeed well written and sourced with much of the in-article material available for anyone's perusal. Passes GA.

I will be using the above table to complete the review. Mr rnddude (talk) 15:30, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Continentaleurope and Xwejnusgozo, you'll need to confirm that the article is no longer under construction before I initiate a review. The article has nearly doubled in size (byte size) since the nomination was initially placed (on 31st July). If the article is ready for GA I'm going to have to ask both of you to abstain from making any more major changes, copy-edits and the like are fine, but, right now the article is not really stable enough for me to review. Ideally, nobody would be making any changes (even CE) until after I post my initial review so that I don't have to review new changes in the process. The last relatively large change (+ 736 bytes) was about half an hour ago, it was to add a reference which is fine normally, but, it's one of more than a hundred recent edits. Mr rnddude (talk) 07:08, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Some changes that may need to take place is only a last review by Xwejnusgozo. I apologise for adding information during the review but I only did it assuming it improves and not to hault the GA status. Will take responsability in archiving sources and related sources.Continentaleurope (talk) 07:15, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

It's not an issue, I only took up the review yesterday, I brought it up so that it doesn't start to interfere with the review. I can wait a day or two for Xwejnusgozo to review your changes that's no problem. Mr rnddude (talk) 09:57, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

I tried my best to write the footnotes in full, as they should be written at university standard, however I may still need to learn which format is appropriate and why some archived source may not always work (such as the last archived source). There are at least four sources that need to be written in full. That is all from me. More information about things on the building would require their own article. I will respect Xwejnusgozo's last review before assessment. I do not think there is anything specific to add after review and assessment.Continentaleurope (talk) 11:36, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Alright, I'll await Xwejnusgozo's reply here or on the article's talk page. Mr rnddude (talk) 11:43, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

@Mr rnddude and Continentaleurope: I just rewrote parts of the article, added a few more images etc (all images were taken by Continentaleurope so there are no problems re licensing etc). I did not add any new info except for some minor details about Nelson's Hook. In my opinion the article is ready for review. Best regards, Xwejnusgozo (talk) 21:27, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Update; expect a couple days delay as I am currently busy IRL, hopefully it'll be up by the tenth. Mr rnddude (talk) 15:09, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

@Mr rnddude: Is it still possible to review the article yourself or should I request the help of another user? If you have any questions please ask.Continentaleurope (talk) 12:39, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Continentaleurope, sorry for the delay, I can tackle the review, I've been dragged away from GA by a couple other things and will get to this review as soon as possible (assume either tomorrow or Monday). Note, I have been active with fair regularity on Wikipedia, I may have tackled too many GA reviews in a short time frame, and part of the reason for my break. Mr rnddude (talk) 12:43, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

@Mr rnddude: Thanks for your fast reply. It is good to hear that you still remember about it. I am currently working on the article of the building of the Headquarters of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Mediterranean, which is namely Spinola Palace (St. Julian's). This may take me more than a month to complete. Will ask for some help for this article eventually since I am not an experienced editor. Thanks again.Continentaleurope (talk) 12:50, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Continentaleurope and Xwejnusgozo, I have completed my initial review. First, sorry for the extensive delays in getting this done. Second, this is looking to become an excellent and very well written article and I only have a few minor qualms that need addressing for GA. You'll note criterion 2d is labelled "?", I'll ping you if this changes after I look through some of your sources. Otherwise, 1a and 4 are the only concerns that I have. Mr rnddude (talk) 13:12, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

@Mr rnddude: Thanks for the review. I have addressed the issues, kindly listed by you. Most streets in Malta are written in full name as Merchants Street or Strada Mercanti. I would prefer the use of capital letter since this is also a name not merely saying "the street". There are almost no sources that refer to streets in Malta that way ....i.e. Valletta Street not Valletta street. Valletta street would be used to say a street that leads to Valletta not the name of the street. It is always written as Merchants Street, Rue de Merchants, Strada Mercanti. I have complied and changed Street to street but I think Street is more correct in the context of country, literature and consistency.

I also checked for copyright, plagiarism and paraphrasing and found nothing in violation of this.Continentaleurope (talk) 14:44, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

I mean if Street is more correct than street in this context then feel free to change back to the original. I noted it only because where I live and places where I have lived it's always been spelled as street. Other than that, I'll review your changes and notify if anything comes up. Mr rnddude (talk) 14:47, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Article used without contribution

@Xwejnusgozo: The Maltese society in Australia in their journal have copied word by word the summary of the article. Also a local Maltese NGO has copied and paraphrased some of the articles with links to Wikipedia. see. A source at least gave attribution. Should we collect such sources for a reason or another?Continentaleurope (talk) 00:28, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

@Continentaleurope: Given the amount of information that is available on Wikipedia, it's inevitable that there are some who simply copy and paste without attribution (although if used for a publication the editor/s should know better!). I have no issue with paraphrasing, although they could have removed the links. I guess a list of these sources can be made, but I don't think that anything can be done per se. --Xwejnusgozo (talk) 19:08, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

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"Old law courts of the order" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Old law courts of the order. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 August 7#Old law courts of the order until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Steel1943 (talk) 21:46, 7 August 2020 (UTC)