Talk:Caïque

Hidden away

Why in the world is this article hidden away with no mention at Caique (disambiguation)? Gene Nygaard (talk) 01:05, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Merge

(new section created today for discussion: I assume this comment is part of that. Moonraker12 (talk) 10:04, 16 June 2008 (UTC))

I could not find the term kaiki in any of the encyclopedias or dictionaries. I think that one is just a Turkish loanword in Greek of the related term. We can unite both ones in this article. --Chapultepec (talk) 08:19, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Reading the two articles and the etymologies of the words, this seems a sensible proposition. Knepflerle (talk) 09:11, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

(moved comment from here to keep discussion together. Moonraker12 (talk) 10:13, 16 June 2008 (UTC))

This deceptively simple suggestion is starting to look like a can of worms to me. Half an hour ago I’d have said yes, but are we talking about the same thing? The Caique article says it “is a light skiff used on the Bosphorus, a long narrow rowboat used in the Middle East or a Levantine sailing vessel.” That’s 3 different type of vessel; is this just a generic word, like “boat”? Does the word in english refer specifically to the Greek sailing vessel, or to all of them? And what are Turkish sailing vessels on the Aegean called? Moonraker12 (talk) 10:18, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Someone at 216.221.123.212 wants to merge this into Kaiki; do you want to say why? The English word is "Caique", after all. Moonraker12 (talk) 13:01, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

This discussion seems to have gone cold all of a sudden.
My reading suggests the word Caique applies to the fishing and coasting vessels found in the Aegean, both Greek and Turkish, much as the description at Kaiki. So I suggest:-

• the content there be stripped of all the Greek terminology and moved here.

• The first sentence should read “A Caique (Greek: Kaiki, Turkish:kayık) is a wooden fishing boat usually found among the waters of the Ionian or Aegean Seas. It is traditionally a small wooden trading vessel, brightly painted and rigged for sail. The caïque is also a typical case of positioning the beam far aft, with a long sharp bow.
• Kayik is the generic Turkish word, so if “the light skiff used on the Bosphorus,” is also specifically called Kayik, and if the type is notable enough, it should have its own page under that name/title.
• The generic Greek word for boat is … καράβι, so Kaiki is the specific type, and it's covered by this article.
• The Etymology section is interesting enough, though secondary to the boat type, I would say, so it should stay here as a 2nd section.

Comments? Moonraker12 (talk) 07:51, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

PS We also need a different picture; the caiques shown here and here look a lot different. Moonraker12 (talk) 07:54, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
(see section below for replies, and further comments Moonraker12 (talk) 14:53, 31 January 2009 (UTC))

It's been 4 weeks, and I've heard no reply, so it's been merged. Moonraker12 (talk) 15:37, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

References

Picture

(copied from section above. Moonraker12 (talk) 14:53, 31 January 2009 (UTC))
PS We also need a different picture; the caiques shown here and here look a lot different. Moonraker12 (talk) 07:54, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

The Caique showing in the second photo (in Pylos) has nothing to do with Greek traditional ships-(“Kaikia”)….It is an easy investment probably from a local businessman….

The first photo is the Greek “Trehandiri” type of vessel(or “Tirhandila” for Turkish).

I think the comments of the second photo at least unsuccessful ("These wooden boats, which were used for commercial and/or fishing purpose and considered as typical of the Aegean Sea can nevertheless be found all around Greece (Pylos is on the Ionian side)"….

Make a web-photo-journey in Greek islands to see by your own eyes what is the most common ship….

Thanks ThanasisG (talk) 07:36, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I did that already. Google has hundreds of images of Caiques; pretty much all of them look like this, with a cabin and a mast. Are you saying these are not Caiques? What is your source/evidence for that? Moonraker12 (talk) 15:21, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

another caique?

I've moved these:
"and a light skiff used on the Bosporus.

File:Caique.jpg

A caique on the Bosporus

from the introduction as it's plainly talking about a different kind of craft. If these are also called "caiques" maybe they should be on their own page. Moonraker12 (talk) 15:10, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

PS I've asked about this before, in the "Merge" section (above) but there was no answer. If anyone does have the answers, can you put them here, instead of just dumping the material back into the article? Thanks! Moonraker12 (talk) 15:13, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi, I was unfortunately away during the merger process, and I could not reveal my thoughts. Even if the two words come from the same etymological root, their physical appearance and functions are slightly different. Probably we should re-separate them. Light skiff used on the Bosporus should be here, and the Greek kaiki in kaiki article. --Chapultepec (talk) 15:18, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, no; Caique (without an accent, incidentally) is the English word for the Aegean fishing boat and which, AFAIK applies to both Greek and Turkish boats equally. If the Turks have another kind of boat which is also called caique ( the Bosphorus skiff) then it should be under a new page (like Caique (Bosphorus) for example), but it’d need to be notable enough. And I’d have thought it would be kayık, anyway. If this is shaping up to be a Greek/Turk argument, that’s not really on; This is, after all, the English Language WP so that’s what we should go by. Moonraker12 (talk) 14:37, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Here is a picture of an imperial caique on the Bosphorus. [1] Merriam Webster gives two definitions thereon: 1. a light skiff used on the Bosporus, 2. a Levantine sailing vessel; implying that the word is being used for both meanings. But we should admit that there are slight differences between the two. --Chapultepec (talk) 15:33, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Here is another web page on imperial caiques. [2] Besides, Dictionary.com also gives two definitions thereon. [3] 1. a single-masted sailing vessel used on the eastern Mediterranean Sea, 2. a long, narrow rowboat used on the Bosporus. Under these circumstances, I should change my mind, maybe we should keep both definitions in the article. --Chapultepec (talk) 15:48, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I found another illustrated web page about caiques on the Bosporus. [4] In the light of these articles and references given, I can say that we should keep both definitions in the article. Or else, if we will separate both definitions in different articles, then the definition "a wooden fishing and sailing vessel used on the eastern Mediterranean" may be in the article with its Greek pronunciation, namely kaiki. --Chapultepec (talk) 17:04, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

(These comments weren't here before! How did that happen?) To reply, what I said before; Caique (the English loanword) should describe the Aegean fishing boat. But if there's evidence for it, the introduction could also say something like "the word is also used to describe a light skiff used on the Bosphorus". How about that? Moonraker12 (talk) 14:46, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

PS I'll need to look at the links; sorry, I've not seen them yet. Moonraker12 (talk) 14:48, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi, both Dictionary.com and Merriam-Webster describe the term caique under two definitions, without an argument. So, we cannot say that caique should describe the Aegean fishing boat only. So, both definitions should take place in the article in the light of these sources. We can have an introduction like "caique is the term for a wooden fishing boat usually found among the waters of the Ionian or Aegean Seas, and a light skiff used on the Bosporus." I hereby give the links to the references and other web pages once again. [5] [6] [7] [8] --Chapultepec (talk) 15:24, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Besides, you mentioned that some of the comments weren't in the talk page before, this is most probably due to your browser's cache. Clearing your browser's cache will solve the problem I think. --Chapultepec (talk) 19:35, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough, if you think they should both be on the same page, then OK.

But if so they need to be separated out, to be clear which boats we are talking about; how about separate paragraphs; Caique (Aegean) and Caique (Bosphorus)? Do you know any more about the skiffs (construction, usage, operation etc)? It needs to be more than a sentence and a picture, really. The boats I’ve seen on the Bosphorus were used for cooking and selling fish at the quayside; that is the one we’re talking about isn’t it?

And we’ll ned a suitable picture for the Aegean/Levantine boat.

And what about the “Imperial Caique”? Isn’t that something else again?

Moonraker12 (talk) 18:35, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Then we're agreed upon the first stage, now let's come to the second.

Yes, having given both definitions of caique in the introduction, we should separate the article into two parts. The section headers can be named "Caique (Aegean)" and "Caique (Bosphorus)" as you said, or another, such as "Aegean fishing boat" and "Bosporus light skiff" etc. I will prepare a paragraph for the "Bosporus light skiff" section in a couple of days. So the article may look like the following:

A caïque (Greek: kaiki, from Turkish: kayık) is the term for a wooden fishing boat usually found among the waters of the Ionian or Aegean Seas, and also a light skiff used on the Bosporus.

Aegean fishing boat

.........................

Bosporus light skiff

.........................

If you are mentioning about what you saw at the Eminönü quayside, yes, they are some examples of caiques. In fact these crafts were mainly used for transportation during the Ottoman period. Nowadays, they are being utilized only for small fishery and touring purposes. As per the imperial caiques, in fact an imperial caique is not much different from a standard one except its size, a partition for the sultan, and imperial armorials of course. The ones we see on the Bosporus nowadays are modern reconstructions for touristic purposes only.

For the photographs, sorry, the one above is the only image I have for the moment, but in the course of time, and if I can have the opportunity of course, I can take photos of both types. --Chapultepec (talk) 02:16, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Looks good; and the picture (of the skiff) is fine, BTW; it looks just like what I had in mind. The Imperial Caique, though, looks more like (and presumably functioned like) a royal barge, surely? Moonraker12 (talk) 12:49, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

So far as I know, their structure is similar to the standard ones, of course their size is quite bigger, they have a partition or a small kiosk for the nobilities, and naturally they have imperial armorials and adornments. Certainly a mention about the differences is needed in the article. I will have an extra search for that. --Chapultepec (talk) 13:26, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

References

Length

Did I miss it, or is there no reference to the length of the larger caique? The smaller skiff is described, but I didn't see any length given for the Turkish caique. It looks about 50 feet or more.

Length

Did I miss it, or is there no reference to the length of the larger caique? The smaller skiff is described, but I didn't see any length given for the Turkish caique. It looks about 50 feet or more.

Smaxam (talk) 05:13, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

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