Talk:CNN Newsroom (international TV program)

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Requested move 2 October 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to CNN Newsroom (International TV program) per Gonnym. It's time to close this RM somehow, and this variant, while not receiving full explicit endorsement, seems to tick the boxes of being recognizable enough, precise enough, and satisfying the spirit of NCTV. No such user (talk) 16:21, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

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CNN Newsroom (CNNI) → CNN Newsroom (2009 TV program) – This is incorrectly named under WP:NCTV no matter how you slice it. Disambiguating "by TV network" has been deprecated under WP:NCTV as being too obscure for most readers (and even that way, this should be at CNN Newsroom (CNN International TV program) not at CNN Newsroom (CNNI)). This case is a little awkward due to the existence of the regular CNN program CNN Newsroom, but it's basically a WP:TWODABS situation, so we can disambiguate this one "by year" under WP:NCTV, and use hatnotes. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 20:35, 2 October 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Iffy★Chat -- 22:20, 12 October 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. L293D (☎ • ✎) 14:10, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

• Comment: I'm still researching this. Current concern is that we might have a duplicate article CNN Newsroom (CNNI) says that the name changed in 2014 to "CNN Today", and we have an article for that: CNN Today. And "CNN Today" has a section for CNN Today#Original series, which talks about the 2004–2009 years, which "CNN Newsroom (CNNI)" also covers CNN_Newsroom (CNNI)#CNN Today (2004–2009) (it's actually a word-for-word copy). So if this is actually the same show with a different name, then merge into one article and use the latest incarnation name. --Gonnym (talk) 16:44, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

@Gonnym: If you confirm that, please let me know, as I can withdraw the WP:RM and then we can simply redirect CNN Newsroom (CNNI) to CNN Today. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:38, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

They're two different programs. CNN Today is a morning show for the Asia region that shows from around 5-8am HKT, and CNN Newsroom airs during the afternoon, for a global audience. You might notice how it says on CNN Newsroom (CNNI)#CNN Today (2014–present) that "the Asian morning block was rebranded to CNN Today". The afternoon block is still branded as CNN Newsroom. – numbermaniac 01:46, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Was able to find this listed on their TV schedule here. --Gonnym (talk) 16:43, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose and suggest CNN Newsroom (CNN International TV program) as appropriate because year doesn't aid most readers (as the other version was started only 2 years earlier). Normally we'd use country of origin, but that doesn't fit here either. This is the perfect case to allow an exception to the normal rules and state it as clear as possible by using the network name). -- Netoholic @ 10:28, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Sure it does: it's a WP:TWODABS situation – anyone who ends up at the "wrong" CNN Newsroom will end up at the correct article in two clicks. I have no prejudice against creating CNN Newsroom (CNN International TV program) as a redirect, but disambiguating "by network" has been deprecated, and doing so in this case is not necessary and offers no particular advantage. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 15:16, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support-ish - I don't have a problem with CNN Newsroom (2009 TV program) and I don't have a problem with a modified Netoholic proposal of CNN Newsroom (International TV program) - as this A) doesn't use a deprecated style and B) has no need in duplicating the word "CNN" as it's in the show's title already and this fits with "country", in which country is international. --Gonnym (talk) 16:43, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Would like to make it clear than I'm opposed to any use of network ("CNNI"/"CNN") in the disambiguation, as does WP:NCTV. --Gonnym (talk) 13:25, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support CNN Newsroom (CNN International TV program) - I don't think disambiguation by year is the best option in this case. I don't even think the article makes it clear that 2009 was the start of this particular program. I think the clearer disambiguation needs to be between the US and international version of the program. I wouldn't even mind CNN Newsroom (CNNI TV program) for the sake of condensing the article title -- Whats new?^(talk) 09:50, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
  • I'd also be fine with CNN Newsroom (CNNI TV program) for conciseness. -- Netoholic @ 12:44, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
    • If we're going this route, I'm not sure "CNNI" is clear enough (i.e. WP:RECOGNIZABLE), and the article for that channel is at CNN International not CNNI. So, CNN Newsroom (CNN International TV program) is the correct proposal – no prejudice against a redirect at CNN Newsroom (CNNI TV program) though... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 15:35, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
      • Sounds reasonable -- Whats new?^(talk) 21:49, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support Gonnym's CNN Newsroom (International TV program) modified Netoholic proposal - to a reader not familiar with Wikipedia's disambiguation policies, seeing "2009 TV program" is likely to make them think it's an old, no longer airing program, rather than the one that is currently running. Similar to what "Whats new" said, the article states World Report ran from 2009-2013, and that the CNN Newsroom name only began in 2013, which could start a whole new discussion about whether "2009 TV program" in the title is correct. I think it would be much better to differentiate their titles by using the feature that actually makes them different - one is for the United States only, and the other is for the international audience. – numbermaniac 12:13, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

That's not how NCTV works – Vikings is at Vikings (2013 TV series), and it's still airing. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 21:19, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

That's because you know the policy. Given that there's two TV shows called CNN Newsroom, placing 2009 in the title is likely to confuse readers unfamiliar with Wikipedia's NCTV policy into thinking this is for a show that no longer airs. Your example about Vikings still uses "TV series" primarily to differentiate itself from a society of people, which is different from trying to distinguish between two identically named TV shows. – numbermaniac 05:54, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

There are plenty of examples of the latter, though – e.g. Deadline (2000 TV series) and Deadline (2007 TV series) is just one. At worst, it's a "two-click solution" here – someone clicks on the 2009 TV series article by mistake, but the hatnote quickly gets them to CNN Newsroom. IOW, that's pretty much standard practice. So, "by year" disambiguation" isn't somehow "unusual" or "unusually detrimental" in this case... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 13:15, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

• FTR, while "by network" disambiguation is deprecated under WP:NCTV, it's still preferable to incomplete disambiguation, so I'm going to formally oppose this CNN Newsroom (International TV program) option – that's far worse than the CNN Newsroom (CNN International TV program) option. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 22:02, 10 October 2018 (UTC) Pulling my "hard" opposition to this option – I still don't like it, but it's preferable to leaving the article where it is currently... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 12:31, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
  • I don't think its incomplete - the "International" word is not part of the "CNN International" name, but it's replacing the broadcast country, similar to how there are "North American TV series" and "European TV series" etc. --Gonnym (talk) 06:42, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

I don't think we've ever done that before under NCTV, and I wouldn't support starting to. I'm already uncomfortable with "super-national/regional" disambiguation (though this seems unavoidable with some of the TV channels under WP:NCBC...), just as we all are with "sub-national" disambiguation under NCTV. We should be keeping this sort of thing to a minimum – we really should be disambig'ing by simple country (only) whenever possible... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 12:41, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose. Disambiguating with CNNI is fine. Immediately recognizable; moreso than the proposed title and far more WP:CONCISE than the alternative proposal. As to what NCTV says I call IAR. Following a poorly conceived guideline is no excuse to ruin perfectly good titles with worse ones that don’t comply with WP:CRITERIA nearly as well. —В²C ☎ 05:26, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
  • How is CNNI recognizable? I've never heard of it and none of the first results from a google search (other than the Wikipedia page) use "CNNI" - even their twitter name and official website is not CNNI. --Gonnym (talk) 06:42, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
    • Well, I recognized it. Not sure from where. Maybe from watching it? @CNNI is their official Twitter handle, FWIW. https://twitter.com/cnni. Quite obvious. —В²C ☎ 06:58, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
      • The handle yes, not the name. That's like saying John Oliver is recognizable as iamjohnoliver. --Gonnym (talk) 08:25, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
  • We know you're big on WP:CONCISE, but it doesn't trump WP:RECOGNIZABLE (and I don't find "CNNI" to be widely recognizable), and if we do it by network we should do it by the network name – the article is at CNN International, not CNNI. (And I'll just once again note that all of this can be avoided by moving to CNN Newsroom (2009 TV program), which is fact is still the best option here, and is the actually "correct" one under WP:NCTV...) Oh, and if you're suggesting we just leave it where it is, that is wrong, wrong, wrong as per WP:NCTV (which you seem to like to ignore). --IJBall (contribs • talk) 12:37, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
    • The only reason disambiguation is required here is because the basename alone is ambiguous, but it alone is already recognizable. We’re not adding disambiguation for recognizability, we’re adding it to distinguish from the other (regular) CNN Newsroom. The notion that adding CNNI makes the title unrecognizable is silly. That said adding 2009 TV program does make it less recognizable than it is with CNNI. It requires knowing the quite obscure trivia that the CNNI edition launched in 2009. —В²C ☎ 13:09, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
      • It doesn't matter that you don't care for it – the guideline is that it would be at CNN Newsroom (CNNI TV program) even your way, as per WP:NCTV, regardless. It can't stay where it is – it needs to be at one of CNN Newsroom (CNNI TV program), CNN Newsroom (CNN International TV program) or CNN Newsroom (2009 TV program) (or, possibly, CNN Newsroom (International TV program) if Gonnym's proposal carries): those are the only legitimate options as per WP:CONSISTENCY under NCTV. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 13:20, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
        • I get the point of the guideline. Most networks are relatively obscure and/or insignificant to most. I mean if it's CBS or ABC or NBC ... who knows? who cares? But I think that paint brush can be too wide too. BBC and CNN in particular are practically universally recognized in the English speaking world. So I don't think the rule against using networks for disambiguation should apply to them. In this case CNN is already in the title; okay. But what distinguishes it significantly from the other one is that it's the CNNI edition of the show, not that it was first broadcast in 2009, or that it's a TV program, so that's what the disambiguation should reflect, and does. If you really don't want CNNI then International should suffice, but I think CNNI is much better. But "YYYY TV Program" is nearly useless. TV program should only be used when the other uses of the ambiguous name are not TV programs. And the year makes sense if there are reboots. But when they are both TV programs that were both airing in 2009, "2009 TV program" is a horrible disambiguator. Sorry. --В²C ☎ 20:45, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
          • The article doesn't even make it clear that the show began in 2009. The section titles would indicate that it only began in 2013 as given by the "CNN Newsroom (2013–present)" section, while the section before it implies the program in 2009 was called "World Report (2009–2013)". The key differentiator is the audience and region it is aired to, not the year it began or the fact that it's a TV show - the other Newsroom is too, and it aired in 2009 too. The brackets are supposed to reflect that key difference -- either "(CNN International TV program)" or "(International TV program)" would make that clear. – numbermaniac 06:55, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
            • Yes, "by country" is the preferred way to disambiguate under NCTV, but that is not always possible (and does not appear to be possible in this case), and "by year" disambiguation is the accepted alternative under WP:NCTV. Also note that as per WP:NAMECHANGES, articles are generally named by their subject's most recent "stable" name, not their first (e.g. The Hogan Family, or Sunday NFL Countdown which was began as NFL GameDay and went for that title for nearly a decade). Again, "by year" disambiguation in this case is not some great "outrage" as is being implied, as a single hatnote would get anyone where they're going within two clicks. A redirect at World Report (2009 TV program) can also easily be created to aid with this. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 12:26, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
• Requesting a relisting here – this one is obviously going to need more discussion before a single solution can be settled upon... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 13:17, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

"World Report" and "CNN World Report"

Entering "CNN World Report" brought up this page. However, CNN World Report was an entirely different show, on CNN, starting around 1987, originally hosted by Ralph Wenge, and airing on Sunday nights; it featured short news pieces submitted by various TV networks worldwide, which were shown "complete, and without editorial comment." -- That Don Guy (talk) 21:39, 12 March 2019 (UTC)