Talk:CA Independiente in international football

About AFA/AUF titles

AFA/AUF titles (such as Tie Cup, or Copa Aldao) are official honours, although they have not been organised by Conmebol. Some statements are wrong, p.e. FIFA DOES not recognise titles not organised by the body (such as Libertadores, or Intercontinental), only the FIFA Clubs World Cup is a competition organised by it. Likewise, Conmebol does not recognise AFA/AUF titles because the institution had not been founded by then (an therefore the Confederation can't validate a competition not organised by it) - source: here. The RSSSF also listed the Copa Aldao on their website, Link here

But AFA and AUF consider those competitions as "official" and must be included. (see Memoria y Balance AFA, 1939)

Other articles of Argentine clubs (Boca, River, Racing) list all the AFA/AUF trophies in the list of official titles, they can be separated from Conmebol honurs, but can't be ommitted. - Fma12 (talk) 01:19, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

The current article wording is fine. No need for it to be changed. Of course, AFA−AUF trophies are official and can't be omitted in an overall counting, but as with the Lunar New Year Cup, they were organized by national governing bodies instead of a continental governing body, like CONMEBOL. The Lunar New Year Cup is an official competition endorsed by the Hong Kong Football Association, FIFA member. Thus this kind of titles should be separated as "minor" international titles from the "main" ones, otherwise FC Barcelona would have 63 official international titles due to the Joan Gamper Trophy being, although preseasonal, still an official competition organized by the Catalan Football Federation, and Paris Saint-Germain Football Club would have an overall count of 15 international titles, since the Coupe de France is contested by teams from other FIFA "national" associations such as New Caledonia, Tahiti and others. Also, Real Madrid CF's Copa Iberoamericana, which was an official CONMEBOL competition (see this page), is never classified together with other UEFA−FIFA titles and, instead, is given a mention in any other category, if it's in fact mentioned. Lastly, since the conflicting paragraph is an introduction, it should give a summary report and leave such minor details for the appropriate lower sections. Greetings.LUZ Y FUERZA (talk) 23:10, 27 November 2020 (UTC −3)

@LUZ Y FUERZA:: thanks for your feedback. I hope you understand that I'm so tired to struggle with fans instead of neutral editors. Until now (and that´s why I requested protection for this article) I have been dealing with IPs that had a biased version of the history of the club, whose only interest was (or at least seemed to be) to put Independiente at the top of Argentine teams in order of international titles. As your only edits on Wikipedia are related to this club, I hope you don't follow that line of train of thought or are related to those IPs.

My only interest is to make a contribution with a neutral point of view, it doesn't matter if I'm a Boca Juniors supporter. The purpose here is to be as accurate as possible, leaving fanatism behind. So the statement "Independiente is the MOST successful... with 18 titles" at intro is not only unaccurate but baised, according to what some historians says (see source, only of the few that mentions Copa Aldao as titles, was deleted). And I corrected it to "Independiente has won a total 21 (at least, until the status of Lunar Cup can be determined) OFFICIAL international titles, indicating the most recent source about this (see)

About the Lunar Cup, I seriously doubt it is an official competition so I'll find out more sources to clarify that point. Of course I may be wrong, but I need to know, since it is not cited on any media article about the club honours. Regarding some of your statements about the topic, I don't agree to separate titles as "major" or "minor". The most accurate separation is "official" or "not official" (or friendly), so the "minor" denomination does not indicate a neutral point of view. Speaking specifically, the Joan Gamper Cup is not an official tournament but a friendly competition, organised by FC Barcelona. Moreover, the same WP article you cited, mentions it as "friendly".

As I told you before, the aim is to make a good and accurate article. For all the reasons explained above, I had to make some changes to the article and please "DON'T" revert them (if you don't agree) instead of speaking of them here and discussing them, or I'll have to make another report, which I don't want to. Regards, Fma12 (talk) 10:34, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

You are doing exactly the same you don't want others to do, so I am fine with your request for protection. I don't see where the statement "Independiente is the most successful" is more or less accurate than your "version" of "Independiente is surpassed by Boca Juniors". Especially when you have the option to simply state "Independiente has an overall 21 official international titles" without the need to mention Boca Juniors, which is not related to this article. I recommend you, then, to try and edit with that same emphasis the Real Madrid CF in international football article by adding the aforementioned Copa Iberoamericana, and that's just one example among other amount of official international titles that are omitted on other teams' honour list. Notice also that I am not giving a mention of the three Copa Interamericana titles, which also make Independiente the most successful team at that competition, and that is, as I said before, because this is only a introduction an the Interamericana doesn't have the same importance as the Libertadores, the Sudamericana and the Intercontinental have.

The situation with the Lunar New Year Cup is simple. If the Copa Aldao has a mention, then the Lunar Cup should also appear, since both competitions are (or were) officially organized by a national governing body (the Hong Kong Football Association, and the Argentine and Uruguayan Football Association respectively). It doesn't matter if it doesn't make an appear on Independiente's social networks (the Copa Aldao only makes barely a mention in Independiente's website even without its correct name), and it's okay if that's the case because it can't be simply classified together with the Copa Libertadores.

About the IPs you were seeing, that was me making an edition from my cellphone, where I usually go anon. I'm sorry if that bothered you. I also doubt that you are someone that can say that some version is "biased" or not since you are the only one pretending to give Boca Juniors an important mention on another big team from Argentina's article. Until some moderator sees this misunderstood, I will keep the original version. LUZ Y FUERZA (talk) 8:08, 28 November 2020 (UTC −3)

@LUZ Y FUERZA: Well, I tried to do my best in reaching a consensus but you don't want to understand. About Boca Juniors, it is the article who mentions the club, not me. I didn't write "Independiente is the most successful club in the Americas alongside fellow Argentine team Boca Juniors, with 18 official international titles recognized by either FIFA or CONMEBOL", but it is tendencious so it mentions only a part of the history, ommitting the official Rioplatense cups. But as you mention it, the statement could be fixed to "Independiente is one of the two teams (along with Boca Juniors) to have won most Conmebol titles, with 18". It could be accepted, and sounds better than the original sentence, I would also add the total amount of titles so they must me mentioned.

After all this discussion, it seems that your only interest is to put Independiente at the top, deleting sources and edits by other users, which is unacceptable. You have not shown a minimum effort to reach a consensus or being collaborative, you only reverted all my edits, with no less intention of trying to be a bit accurate. And that's what annoys me.

I'm going to modify the sentence in order to mention the total amount of titles, trying not to "hurt other users feelings" about their teams. Because my intention is (as I stated before) to make a good article instead of one with an only p.o.v. You are welcome to make corrections that really improve it, not only reversions that also delete reliable sources. But if you persist on your attitude, I won't hesitate to report your changes and let an admin decide. My patience is not infinite, and I've been more than tolerant with you and the other blocked IPs. - Fma12 (talk) 16:23, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

That last edition seems more neutral and I'm ok whit it. This time I'm only going to take away again the mention of the Rioplatense titles, as their are almost not relevant at all. You even kept omitting the Copa Interamericana as I did, so there should be no problem. All twenty one titles are ultimately given mention down at the Titles section. Same occurs at the Real Madrid CF in international football where the Intercontinental Cup is the only defunct competition given mention at the first paragraphs. I hope you are ok with that. I also think you should calm down a bit and learn not to get angry because your favorite football team is not given a favorable mention in another big team's article, but that is another subject. LUZ Y FUERZA (talk) 19:13, 28 November 2020 (UTC −3)

@LUZ Y FUERZA:: I was always neutral with my editions here, as I have been editing not only articles related to the team you're fan of, but a large amount of clubs (even River Plate), during my almost 15 years in Wikipedia. And don't misunderstand me, what makes me angry is not you or your IPs feeling mad when Boca Juniors is mentioned as the most winning team. What really annoyed me have been your continuous reversions and biased criteria at the moment of editing, without discussing it first, or at least, openning a dialog box. You only erased, not just sentences, but reliable sources as well.

Regarding "Copa Iberoamericana", I recommend you to visit List of Real Madrid CF records and statistics, which cites this cup not only as an official title, but as a "worldwide competition", including it along with Copa Intercontinental and FIFA Club WC. There is no mention to "minor" titles as you did on the page, so I'm going to change it here. Previously, you provided me Real Madrid CF in international football as a source to base your arguments on (and your consideration of Copa Aldao as a "minor title") but that categorisation does not appear there. Another option could be to remove the list of titles from the article, so they are also listed on the proper section of Club Atlético Independiente. Other similar articles (such as Real Madrid and Boca Juniors in international football competitions) don't have those lists.

To conclude: I know that you created this article, but that does not give you the right to consider this your personal property, removing all the edits from other users. I suggest you to take a look at Wikipedia:Consensus before taking actions that are no constructive at all. Fma12 (talk) 23:11, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

fixing referencing errors

I've again reverted a change that deletes the definition of a reference named "tyc18". While this representative seems completely viable to me, if the decision is made to delete it, then it should be replaced with a {{cite}} tag, Removing the reference definition without attending to the other uses of this reference causes the article to render with a visible error about the missing reference. -- Mikeblas (talk) 15:12, 23 March 2021 (UTC)