Talk:Bobby Fischer Teaches Chess

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MOS:OVERLINK

Common everyday words like "best selling" and "publish" should not be wikilinked. They do nothing to add to the understanding of the subject of the article, and are just a distraction. The edit warring behaviour by IQ125 also re-introduced false information into the article. It is easily verifiable that the book was first published in 1966, and the cited source (Shelby Lymon) supports the information that the book is written in the programmed learning style. In short, the reverts were completely unjustified, as was the uncivili accusation of "vandalism" in the edit summary. MaxBrowne (talk) 11:27, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

The second reference does not support the claim that it is the best selling chess book – I have replaced it with one that does and which also supports the 1966 date. "Bestselling" means "highly popular" (i.e. "very well-selling") and is not a synonym for "best selling", that is, "having sold more copies than any other". I agree the wikilinks in the second sentence are a distraction and are unhelpful. User:IQ125, if you continue to revert other users' edits without engaging in discussion you will be blocked for edit warring. MaxBrowne's edits were made in good faith and are by definition not vandalism. Cobblet (talk) 13:39, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Agree on the overlinking. I added a bit more info about the publishing history - the Bantam edition did not come until 1972, but it did come out in 1966 with a different publisher.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 14:03, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Original publisher was a recently acquired Xerox subsidiary, part of their education division. Might be able to improve on my sourcing but a google book search shows multiple ads in publications like the New Yorker, Scientific American etc. $6.95 must have been quite expensive for a book back then. MaxBrowne (talk) 14:16, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Indeed. It was probably the Bantam edition which became the bestseller, as it came out right when interest in chess was exploding because of the Fischer-Spassky match.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 14:22, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

This link to the text of "The unknown Bobby Fischer" (Donaldson & Tanghorn, 1999) supports that statement. In that case the Bantam paperback edition and the sudden rise to the top of the best seller lists in 1972 should probably be mentioned. MaxBrowne (talk) 14:34, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Just a note, Donaldson & Tanghorn's claim that BFTC was in the NYT best sellers list in 1972 does not appear to be correct. I checked the lists on this site and none of them include BFTC. MaxBrowne (talk) 00:04, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Is that website a reliable source? There is more than one "non-fiction" NYT list. The current NYT best seller list has subcategories for Hardback and Paperback Non-fiction, plus "Advice, How-To and Miscellaneous" which would seem to fit a chess puzzle book. Maybe they did back then too. I would be inclined to go with the "Unknown Fischer" source myself.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 12:34, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

No it isn't a reliable source, it's self-published. I'm using it in talk though, not in article space. Hypothetically, if anyone were to mention the New York Times best seller list in this article, Donaldson/Tanghorn would not be good enough. They'd need to find an actual NYT list which included the book. MaxBrowne (talk) 12:56, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Why would it not be good enough? I have the book and it's a reliable secondary source. John Donaldson is a respected published chess author.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:12, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Because the claim that the book was on the NYT best sellers list is dubious. Can NYT confirm it? MaxBrowne (talk) 14:06, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

I have added some info on the book's sales, sourced from the Donaldson book, but have left out the NYT claim until I can corroborate it.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 14:46, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

I think the stubborn editor is MaxBrowne, he keeps deleting the optimum inter-wiki links in the article Bobby Fischer Teaches Chess and either replacing them with inferior wiki-links or none at all. The book noted in the article is the highest selling and most recognized chess book ever written and published. Thank you IQ125 (talk) 17:21, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

User:IQ125, whether wikilinks are "optimum" is not a matter for you to decide unilaterally. It is a matter to be decided through consensus. If someone says they don't like the wikilinks and removes them, you are edit-warring if you reinsert them without explaining why you think they're necessary (and what you've just written is not an explanation.) Continuing to do so may lead to loss of your editing privileges. That being said, I have no problem with the links you've reinserted in the first sentence. Cobblet (talk) 18:39, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Well I don't think the description "chess puzzle book" is correct. "Chess puzzle" is a layman's term, chess players talk about chess "problems" or "studies". The salient feature of the book is not the use of "puzzles" as such but the then-new "programmed learning" approach, whereby the reader is quizzed and directed to different sections of the book depending on their answers, the idea being to ensure the reader has understood the information presented before proceeding to the next section. Sort of like a choose your own adventure book. And given that it's a beginner's book, the early questions are extremely simple, e.g. "can the pawn capture the knight?", which is hardly a "puzzle", simply a question to determine whether the reader understands how pawns move. MaxBrowne (talk) 23:55, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

"Puzzle" is not just a layman's term. Problems and studies have aesthetic value; puzzles have didactic value, whatever their complexity. It's good to point out that this book is more structured than your typical puzzle book, but calling it that doesn't seem wrong to me. Cobblet (talk) 04:19, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

The linked Chess puzzle article does have a section on "Tactical puzzles," describing them as "regular positions from a game (with normal rules), usually meant as training positions," which seems to describe this book fairly accurately.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 12:27, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

"checkmate chess puzzle book"

Sorry this just sounds ridiculous. "Chess book" is all that is needed, and the wiki links are not needed either. MaxBrowne (talk) 15:47, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

• Disagree: "checkmate chess puzzle book" provides more description about the book with inter-wiki links and reads smoothly. IQ125 (talk) 16:46, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
• I'm having deja vu here, as we had a very similar discussion a year ago. My preference is for chess puzzle book which is accurate and provides the right level of information- "checkmate chess puzzle book" is awkward and unnecessary, while "chess book" is a bit too vague.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 16:53, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Hi, each chess puzzle leads to a checkmate, hence the better description: ""checkmate chess puzzle book". IQ125 (talk) 18:33, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

But virtually every chess puzzle ever composed requires you to checkmate - it's really not necessary to spell that out. I have never heard the phrase "checkmate puzzle book" anywhere else.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 19:12, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Obviously, you do not use many chess puzzle books. There are many puzzle books with sections that do not require mates to solve the puzzle. IQ125 (talk) 22:08, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Been years since I've seen that book (only really skim-read it) but I'm pretty sure it doesn't exclusively deal with checkmate puzzles, or even exclusively with puzzles, unless you consider "can white castle?" to be a "puzzle" rather than a simple check on whether the reader understands the material presented on the rules of chess. So just something like "chess book for beginners" would be perfectly accurate. That said I don't strongly object to the description "puzzle book", only to "checkmate chess puzzle book" which is a ridiculously awkward and clunky phrase. Also the wikilinks add nothing useful - MOS:OVERLINKing again. MaxBrowne (talk) 23:53, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

MaxBrowne obviously does not own the book and has never read the book. You do not even know the content of the book! IQ125 (talk) 11:29, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

"Written by Bobby Fischer"

Is this accurate? As I understand it, Mosenfelder and Marguiles wrote it and Fischer just allowed his name to be used.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 15:07, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Fischer participated in the writing of the book, he even speaks in first-person in the book. IQ125 (talk) 22:06, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Not sure how credible a source Soltis is, he's been heavily criticized by Edward Winter for example, but he has called into question the extent of Fischer's authorship so I included this. MaxBrowne (talk) 23:24, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Just checked my copy of Profile of a Prodigy and Frank Brady says the above two players and Leslie Ault “helped (Fischer) in outlining and editing the work” but he doesn’t really say much about what Fischer did.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 23:38, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Article looks pretty good now imo. I would still prefer "[[chess]] book" to "[[chess puzzle]] book" but I'll yield to consensus. MaxBrowne (talk) 00:53, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Pointless discussion not related to improving the article
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Why not buy the book and read it before commenting on the talk page and editing the article! IQ125 (talk) 11:43, 13 April 2018 (UTC) Because it's a shitty book. I wouldn't even recommend it to beginners. MaxBrowne (talk) 01:24, 14 April 2018 (UTC) How would you know Patzer? You have never tried it. IQ125 (talk) 10:41, 14 April 2018 (UTC) Read it in a library years ago. Don't own it, don't need it, I'm not a beginner. MaxBrowne (talk) 11:11, 14 April 2018 (UTC) Aw. Fun & productive book for beginners. (Nearly "interactive"; learn how to mate w/o distraction of notation.) Good gift. Try you might like. --IHTS (talk) 02:06, 14 April 2018 (UTC) Hehe, just giving him a well deserved trolling. MaxBrowne (talk) 02:18, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

It says right in the introduction that Mosenfelder and Marguiles set out to write this book and needed a strong "collaborator who ... could develop and evaluate positions, refine themes, and contribute insights from actual games of Grand Master caliber." That it uses the first person doesn't really mean anything. It doesn't seem clear what the precise division of duties are -- it only seems to make sense to say that the three are co-authors (with Fischer as perhaps the "lead" coauthor).

FWIW, this looks pretty far from a GA to me. The sources are quite weak/primary, the sections not particularly well developed. It's one of the best known chess books of the past 50 years, for better or worse, and I would be shocked if this was a reasonably complete summary of what people have said about it. Did Chess Life or any of the other chess magazines not review it, for example? Of course, I say this based entirely on my own sense of the subject rather than on a diligent search for sources, so take that for what you will. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 15:18, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes I think a GA nom is premature. We’ve expanded it, yes, but it doesn’t look much beyond Start class to me. Pawnkingthree (talk) 19:30, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Bobby Fischer Teaches Chess/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Courcelles (talk · contribs) 23:42, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Will do tonight. Courcelles (talk) 23:42, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

What’s here looks fine. But where is the critical commentary, the comparison to other books, basically anything beyond comments on the broad contents and publication history? I’m inclined to fail this, not because of what’s here, but because of what isn’t. Can you address this? Courcelles (talk) 23:51, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

I'm finding it difficult to find reviews in RS, Brady's book constitutes a review of sort I suppose. I'll see what I can find. MaxBrowne (talk) 01:55, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

MaxBrowne & Courcelles, a very quick search turned up citations for three (maybe four) reviews:

1. Electronic Learning, 9/1/1995, ISSN: 0278-3258, Volume 15, Issue 1, p. 46
2. Goldberg, Harold: Entertainment Weekly, 2/3/1995, ISSN: 1049-0434, Issue 260, p. 59
3. Library Journal, 12/15/1966, ISSN: 0363-0277, p. 6218
4. Library Journal, 11/15/1966, ISSN: 0363-0277, p. 5639 --Usernameunique (talk) 18:49, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

• I knew there had to be things like that out there. Let me know if you can get a hold of them or not. Thanks, Usernameunique! Courcelles (talk) 19:20, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

The first two references appear to be related to the software rather than the book, and the second of these is rather disparaging. Could note that the software received mixed reviews I suppose.

Found the Library Journal reference, it reads (reconstructing) "This is a programmed text that gives good instruction on how to play chess for the interested beginner. Chess notation is not used, thus making learning easier for the beginner. Also, a chess set is not essential although it does make the working of some problems easier. Should prove highly useful in libraries in spite of a format which encourages writing in the book.". Obviously LJ is a trade publication for librarians and the review is specifically related to its suitability for libraries, especially school libraries, so not sure if there's anything useful in that. A potentially useful reference which I don't have access to is by Walter Korn in a 1966 edition of "Chess Review", which is fairly critical judging by the excerpt "'Bobby Fischer Teaches Chess' stumbles and disappoints in this sense". The writer appears to question whether Xerox's "programmed learning" approach is suitable for teaching chess. MaxBrowne (talk) 00:09, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

Here's another, TLS, March 30, 1973, p362. Unfortunately it's partially illegible. MaxBrowne (talk) 00:54, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

I can make out the first column if I zoom, but not the second. MaxBrowne, what would you do with this article? My inclination is to say go, put it on the back burner away from a GA review, and see if you can ever get access to the original sources. This might be one of those topics where a shitty combination of age and poor digitization means it can never be a GA without finding hardcopy sources. Courcelles (talk) 01:00, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

Found an "in popular culture" type reference in the novel "White Oleander" where one of the protagonist's foster parents teaches her chess using "Bobby Fischer Teaches Chess". [1] So it has a certain amount of popular culture penetration in the US at least. But yeah might as well withdraw it from GA nomination. MaxBrowne (talk) 01:24, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

Very well, GA nomination withdrawn. Let me know if it ever comes back. Meanwhile, I feel comfortable bumping it up to C-class. Courcelles (talk) 01:34, 25 April 2018 (UTC)