Talk:Belarusian resistance during World War II

Belarusian resistance during World War II

The article describes Soviet resistance in Belarus during World War II. By analogy there should exist Russian resistance... - absurd. Many, maybe the majority, of Soviet partizans weren't local:

• Alexei Fyodorov - Ukrainian, one of the leaders of Soviet partisan movement
• Alexander Saburov - Russian
• Zinaida Portnova - Russian

In Bryansk region - it's in Russia. Belgorod, Kursk, and Smolensk regions - also Russia.

Total anarchy.Xx236 12:44, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I just started man, just give me some time. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 19:06, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

• Panteleimon Ponomarenko and Petr Masherov were Belarusian, so they probbaly shold be mentioned here.
• I'm still against the title. It was rather the Soviet resistance in Belarus during World War II. Any trace of any Belarusian nationalism or separatism was impossible. There is however the problem, that Jewish partizans cooperated with Soviets but weren't Soviet.Xx236 10:02, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Then how about just Resistance in Belarus during World War II? User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 07:03, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Resistance in Belarus should include resistance against Soviets.Xx236 06:33, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

It will. The reason why I ask to affix the date in the article title since there are resistance being performed in Belarus now against President Lukashenko. I want to differentiate between the two. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 06:56, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Is there a reason for maintaining of this separately?

There's already Soviet partisans with Belarusian (still incomplete) section, and there are Soviet partisans in Poland and Military_history_of_Belarus_during_World_War_II and whatnot. If you want to write about Belarusian anti-Soviet resistance, you'd want the separate article with material concerned with Belarusian Independence Party and Battalion Dalwitz -- these weren't fighting against the Germans, though, unlike the Ukrainians. Yury Tarasievich 15:55, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I personally don't think there will be enough with a separate article, at least for now. And, during this time frame, with some of Poland being given over to Belarus, there is another form of resistance that has to be covered (Soviet resistance, Jewish resistance, Polish resistance, Nazi collaboration). Over time, the fate of the article should be clearer. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 19:26, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

On second thought, can we merge this article with Occupation of Belarus by Nazi Germany? User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 19:31, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

There's a lot of material. But in fact, I just don't know how to approach the topic that loaded and controversial in Wikipedia, and still have the use of my nerves and some time for myself.

Just attempting to sketch an outline, the resistances concerning the Belarusian lands would be: 1.Polish anti-Soviet resistance in BSSR 1939-1941, 2.Soviet resistance in BSSR 1941-1944, 3.Soviet resistance outside the USSR 1944 (partisans panning out of Belarusian lands ahead of the advancing Soviet army), 4.Polish resistance in BSSR 1941-1944 (possibly, by 1945, and the Lithuania -- Wilno region would have to be included here, too) 5.Belarusian anti-Soviet resistance 1944-1945 (dunno, some people like to believe the claimed 1956 dealine) 6.Polish anti-Soviet resistance in BSSR-1945 (post-VE) 7.Polish resistance in Poland-1945 (post-VE) 8. Jewish resistance in BSSR 1941-1944 (that is, separate resistance) 9. Soviet-controlled Polish resistance in BSSR and later in Poland 1943-1945

AFAIU, the 1. and 4. could be merged, possibly, with the 6. and 7. could be included. 2. and 3. could be merged too, possibly with 9. Still lots of topics, and inter-connected, at that.

And the real can of worms here is that, AFAICT, the BSSR should definitely mean "in 1941 borders", not "in two parts, one of them rightly Polish part". That much I gather after studying the issue. I wonder how comes the text in Soviet partisans#1942, West Belarus wasn't yet attacked by the "I'm soo not Soviet" participators.

The "Occupation" is a good choice for a very-sketchy-overview-style article, giving the timeline and links to the respective entries in the resistances articles, among other similiar links. Yury Tarasievich 21:08, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like a plan. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 23:30, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

What, no objections? Cool :). So what happens now? BTW, I didn't forget to include the Belarusian anti-Soviet partisan units, only they don't fit into resistance proper. Yury Tarasievich 07:22, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

It's Soviet/Axis POV that Eastern Poland belonged to BSSR 1939-1941. Did any other country accept the annexation at that time?Xx236 07:59, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

We will tie in the land transfer from the Nazis to the Soviet government, so relax. Give us time to work on it. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 08:27, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm commenting 1.Polish anti-Soviet resistance in BSSR 1939-1941 Xx236 08:29, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The problems of posession and acceptation are irrelevant here. The lands in question were actually subject to the BSSR authorities in 1939-1941, and were, e.g., included in the program of the partisan units and underground communist party buildup etc. Yury Tarasievich 08:34, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Ah, and acc. to my sources, the Polish military structures buildup in these lands didn't really begin until the 1942 -- proceeded diffrently, too. So, that's the reason to include this here, instead of a section in AK. Yury Tarasievich 08:58, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

There existed Polish partizans 1939-1940.

1.Polish anti-Soviet resistance in BSSR 1939-1941 is Soviet POV, my POV is Soviet occupation of Eastern Poland. Xx236 11:26, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Not only Soviet, but also American and British POV (Yalta). Soviet and Belarusian POV is "Poland-occupied Belarusian lands" (over the Curson line). Yury Tarasievich 11:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

• I assure you that Yalta happened after June 1941.
• Unit 4 of Wachlarz acted in Belarus in 1941.

Xx236 13:58, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

• • Exactly so -- on both items. Your point being, then? Yury Tarasievich 15:04, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, that's precisely how the geographical discrimination fails and incites empty (but hot) disputes. Discrimination by command would be better. Yury Tarasievich 11:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Forgot to add -- all that is coming from the concept of discriminating of the articles on resistances by the resistances' "nationalities". Yury Tarasievich 09:00, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

In fact, the only meaningful and practical discrimination in the Resistances would be by their respective commands. Therefore, Soviet (+e.g., Soviet Polish), Polish, Jewish (separate from Soviet). Separate are the issues of the Russian, Belarusian etc. forces under the German command. E.g., the active Belarusian (not-Soviet) units after the operated by themselves, and then went under the American control, but these were basically the same BIP/Dalwitz personnel. Yury Tarasievich 09:14, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

What? My country had control over Belarusian units? This is news to me. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 09:23, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Some of the spy and diversionist activities in Belarus after 1945 were conducted by former BIP/BKA/Dalwitz Belarusian personnel under the control of CIA (however it was called then). Yury Tarasievich 09:28, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

OSS, I believe. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 21:03, 26

Some alleged US spies were tortured, so they would have acknowledged they were E.T.s if demanded. Xx236 08:24, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Huh? User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 08:28, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Many arrested people were accused they were Western spies and after tortures they signed they were. It was standart procedure till 1953. There are thousands of accounts. Xx236 08:37, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I remember about the forced confessions, but I just don't think the US Government would have played any role (that I remember). But the ET comments threw me off at nearly 1:30 AM. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 09:10, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Those comments are stereotyping of worse kind, unsuitable for solid Wikipedia material, anyway.

There was (famous) Yan Filistovich who was paradropped in Belarus, with mission of developing of the anti-Soviet resistance and with blessing of Radaslaw Astrowski. Theree were at least several other such people. BTW, they are now acclaimed as heroes by the Belarusian radical activists. Hardly "forced ETs", then. Yury Tarasievich 09:20, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok. It still seems that we can cover a lot in this article, but just not sure how to word it or who to believe. One of the issues Xx236 brings up is the number of deaths related to not only activity such as this, but during the entire war. So I think what we should do is, first, figure out what to call this article (Resistance in Belarus during World War II is my suggestion), then we can focus on what to include. Now, I will sleep on the information and hopefully be back later and get something going before I go on holiday. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 09:25, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Again - how many people were accused to be Western spies in BSSR? Only Yan Filistovich and several others or rather hundreds or thousands?Xx236 09:28, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

We are talking Resistance here. Resistance means choice to act. Yury Tarasievich 09:34, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Folks, I'm sick of this already. Let's cancel the whole concept of "...in Belarus" as trouble-strirring and turn to "Command-centered" concept instead. At least that way we'll make some progress. Yury Tarasievich 09:34, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Permission to redirect the article to somewhere, like the Occupation of Belarus during WWII? User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 09:39, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Fine with me. Yury Tarasievich 13:02, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Soviet partisans#Belarus contains more lines about Belarus than exist here.Xx236 11:54, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Please mind that those lines are concerned only with Soviet partisans in Belarus. Yury Tarasievich 13:02, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Belarusian partisans

Isn't it the same?Xx236 (talk) 12:49, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

I’m agree they are about the same. --Renessaince (talk) 08:21, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

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Inclusion of collaborators as partisans

I do not feel that it is entirely appropriate for people such as Vyacheslav Adamovich and Mikhail Vitushko to be included as "resistance"; they did not do any real resisting, and instead worked as collaborators with Germany. Furthermore, I would state that they should not be considered partisans, as the term most commonly is used in regards to anti-Nazi resistance during the Second World War, and the Black Cats, for example, were an SS unit; one which performed guerrilla activities, but still not exactly an organisation one would consider exactly partisan. It is akin to throwing the Ustashe in with Croatian partisans, in my opinion, and that is why I believe that the German collaborators should be separated from the wartime resistance. Mupper-san (talk) 06:41, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Revert of split

@Onel5969 Is there any possibility of undoing the revert if additional sources are provided? As it stands now, this article constantly jumps between Belarusian Soviet and Polish partisans with little in the name of consistency, and additionally covers two groups which fought each other as the same subject. There's ample proof as to their existence (see here in Polish, here in Russian), as their involvement both in anti-German and anti-Soviet military activities. They're additionally of note in regards to relations between Poland and the government of Lukashenko (see here, here, and here), as well as the rights of ethnic Poles within Belarus.

Currently, this article doesn't cover this, and it's confusing to address two separate topics in the same article. As just one example of this difference, the Belarusian Soviet partisans hold a high place in Belarusian culture and are at the focus of the government, while the Belarusian Polish partisans are shunned and subject to what is widely regarded as a defamation campaign by the Belarusian government. I'm willing to do whatever is needed to keep the articles separate, because as it stands now the article is confusing and puts two subjects under a singular umbrella when they're in fact wholly different.

Mupper-san (talk) 20:41, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

I think a split would be appropriate, but you need sourcing in order to pass WP:VERIFY. If you can provide sourcing, than by all means go for it, and ping me if you want me to take another look. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 22:50, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

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