Talk:Battle of Boyra

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This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 14:50, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

undid disruptive edits

undid removal of content discuss on talk here before reverting. --ÐℬigXЯaɣ 23:32, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Article Rewrite

The article in its current state is unorganized and does not provide information in a clear and concise way. I Intend to do a complete rewrite of the article to improve it. I intend the article to provide an unbiased view of the battle, while providing reliable citations which the article currently lacks.

the changes i feel are necessary and justified are -

1) The section titled "The Battle" merely mentions in a single line that a battle was fought between 4 F-86 vs 4 Gnats. While going into several paragraphs of detail about Wing Commander BS Sikand all the while hinting about his alleged cowardice and status of a pow in the 65 war.

details of BS Sikand's earlier career (who was not even involved in the actual battle itself although he was the overall commander of the squadron of which the 4 gnats belonged to) are completely irrelevant to this article and even more so to a section titled 'THE BATTLE'.

in its current form this section appears to be ad-homnim attack directed against a person, likely the work of a TROLL , which is passed off as a historical battle. this whole section is completely irrelevant in its current form and in the interest of providing actual information and an unbiased view i propose a re write.

2) The Battle of Boyra refers to the air battle aspect of the larger Battle of Garibpur which en comprised both the air and land aspects. The article to convey that and not be a jumbled mix of facts from both.

3) While in the larger context the Battle of Garbipur was being fought by Mukti Bahini with support from 14 punjab battalion of the Indian Army. The battle of boyra was fought between IAF fighters and PAF fighters. Bangaladesh did not have an operational airforce at the time (with air operations beginning on 3rd dec 71' with aircraft donated by the IAF - while this battle took place on 22nd nov 71') and should not be included in the list of belligerents. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pvpoodle (talk • contribs) 04:28, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

The Previous version of the article was biased , did not provide factual information , was not subjective and encyclopedia ,and was riddled with weasel words and unreferenced and unverifiable information. It followed the tone of a 3rd person narrative and not a encyclopaedic in nature at all. I have completed an extensive rewrite with referenced sources which aims to provide accurate infomation on an event of historic significance while attempting to remaining unbiased towards any of the factions involved. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pvpoodle (talk • contribs) 21:32, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

The sources you are adding like [bharat-rakshak.com this one] are not reliable. The battle was fought between Mukti Bahini and Pakistan Forces and India joined the war on 3rd December. Moreover, Bangladesh Air Force was formed on 28th September, not 3rd December. The article is still full of flaws, feel free to improve it by citing reliable sources. --Zayeem ^(talk) 13:08, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Although a lot of the previous version of the article was copied word for word(plagarized) from that same Bharat-rakshak article you mention( without even changing the Tone) and not even cited , you dont seem to have a problem with that?. I have quoted other Published sources besides BR and included the sources from the previous version as well. Both sides as well as neutrals agree that the IAF shot own 2 jets and damaged one in indian airspace on 22 nov 71, i certainly think that forms the MAJORITY VIEW on what happened that day. i have gone into further detail in additional sections of talk. please feel free to highlight any flaws and we can argumentatively discuss the logical merits and demerits of the flaw and collaboratively correct them if needed. Pvpoodle (talk) 17:36, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Alright, I didn't know that the previous revision was a copy vio, thanks for letting me know. Now after giving a verbose reply, you still didn't address my concern and remove the sources from bharatrakshak as they are unreliable. In your replies, you mentioned that IAF got involved in the battle since the PAF jets entered into the Indian Airspace, I guess it's an important point to include in the article, but there is no mention about it, make sure you add this information with citations from a reliable source. And, perhaps unintentionally, you have indulged into some forum-like comments in this talk page (especially in the Neutral Perspective section), make sure you are famliliar with wikipedia policies like WP:NOTFORUM, I hope you will adhere to the policies and remove those redundant literature from the talk page. And lastly, I don't have the time or, frankly, the desire to help you improve this article, neither I'm much knowledgeable in this topic, so I'm just leaving this to you to address the concerns. --Zayeem ^(talk) 09:43, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

the BR citations are not the only ones and are only additional ones. i will be adding more published sources in the near future and will try to replace them. i have mentioned that it was an interception and airspace violation, perhaps you did not notice that on the article. i will cite it soon but until then you can use logic and reasoning to determine the truth to that claim - i.e wreckage well inside indian territory, extreme damage to the aircraft viewable via external image and the low level at which this interception took place , means that the burning and abandoned jets could not have reasonably drifted very far before crashing. Pvpoodle (talk) 12:38, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Difference between Battles of Boyra and Garibpur

The Battle of Garibpur was fought between Indian 14th Punjab Bat + Indian 45 cavalry squadron + Mukti Bahini guerrillas VS the pakistani army (although most sources dont include mention the muktis , we cannot conclusively prove that they weren't there. alteast a few of them would probably have gone along with any Indian army assault battalion as pathfinders/reconnaissance / guides ) despite india officially joining the war on 3rd dec (unless you want to be the only "military expert" who claims guerrillas without any heavy weapons or tanks were able to defeat a Combined arms thrust by Pakistani armour and infantry in Open Terrain no less rather than in Urban Warfare where they might atleast have stood a fighting chance. If in fact you are in fact claiming that, maybe you should add that as the greatest achievement in Gurrilla Warfare EVER).

The Battle of Boyra was an Aerial Interception performed by the IAF who intercepted PAF jets which crossed inadvertently in over into Indian Airspace (wreckage found in india at bangaon and not bangaladesh/east pakistan, look it up in google maps if you want to debate this) during their attack run on the elements of Mitro Bahini engaged in the battle of garibpur. please try to understand the DIFFERENCE or else it all just becomes just the same article.

Regarding the Inclusion of Bangladesh in the List of Belligerents , No one is questioning when the BAF was formed (with aircraft DONATED by India), but whether they were engaged in THIS DOGFIGHT. (unless you want to further claim that a few light transports and helicopters of the BAF modified for ground attack were able to shoot down 2 and damage 1 of what is arguably the "best dogfighter of its era"?.) I am not questioning the obviously tremendous courage of the bengali pilots who flew in make shift attack aircraft to liberate their country but i care about credit being given where it is due.

And also for your information while the BAF was formed on 28 sep 71 they did not commence offensive operations until 3rd dec 71 (which is what i mentioned above) since no squadron / airforce begins even flying much less offensive sorties that very day as it takes time to modify aircraft , pilot familiarization training , unit cohesion training etc. all squadrons in all airforces carry out the above in what is called "working up period" before operational clearance is issued, since no one in those positions of authority in the armed forces want to squander away something as precious as a pilots life or a aircraft when they have so very few to begin with. for further clarification , perhaps you should actually read books on the subject of the 71 war and of warfare in general instead of blindly citing them. Pvpoodle (talk) 17:44, 14 December 2013 (UTC) Pvpoodle (talk) 17:49, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Arguments about BS Srikand

IF anyone wants to argue about the BS Srikand's "incident" as a pow please feel free to start a page about him and carry out your flame war there. while he was the CO of no 22. squadron he was neither involved in either directing this mission nor actually flying in combat during the time. while this incident is noteworthy of a passing mention in RELEVANCE to this article devoting LITERALLY the entire section deceptively titled "THE BATTLE" except for 1 sentence to arguing and counter arguing about his alleged cowardice is definitely NOT RELEVANT to THIS ARTICLE.Pvpoodle (talk) 17:53, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Neutral Perspective

I tried to keep the re written article neutral without any national bias giving credit to the airmen involved from both sides. If anyone feels that this is a flawed approach please feel free to argumentatively highlight why you think so? Pvpoodle (talk) 17:57, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

reverting due to references.

while i have used Bharath rakshak for a few i have also included other references. I intend to find more sources and add them soon, since i actually try to read the source before adding a ref tag it will take me some time. Please do not start a revert war stating this issue. significant parts of the pre-rewrite version of this article are literally copy pasted directly from the very same article people are getting worked up about. It does not even change the Tone of the article , attempt to cite sources or even referenced it with other published works. out of the 4 references in the pre-rewrite version 1 is a blog which is no longer accessible and 2 had to do with circumstances over how PAF acquired the canadair saber.

I have tried to make the article informative about a particular event , provided background, described the event itself, explained the significance of why it is an article and given a summary of the aftermath, while trying to maintain a neutral tone and historical accuracy. if anyone feels there are flaws in the article please start a new section on talk with the flaw and we can collaboratively discuss the change needed and apply it, rather than reverting to the mangled wreck which it was before with a lame justification that i was not using proper sources. Pvpoodle (talk) 18:05, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

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