Talk:Baroness Mary Vetsera

Biography assessment rating comment

WikiProject Biography Assessment

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 09:26, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

The "11 steps" seem not to have much to do with quality, or with the present article. If "B" class, for example, means "has an infobox" and "has no redlinks" then perhaps articles are better off not being B class. - Nunh-huh 17:40, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Naming this page: Cases can be made for Mary Vetsera, Marie Vetsera, or Maria Vetsera. If it counts for anything, it really should be at "Mary Vetsera", because that's what she called herself. But it doesn't belong at Mary von Vetsera, Marie von Vetsera, or Maria von Vetsera, because the particle doesn't belong in her surname.

For those who believe in Google results:

surname Vetsera   von Vetsera
Mary      938     29
Marie     662     41 
Maria    1160    391

(Includes English and other languages; the vons would be reduced if restricted to English only.) - Nunh-huh 21:24, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

no she did not call herself Mary Vetsera, you can google all you want. her official name actually was Marie Alexandrine Freiin von Vetsera, also known as Mary Freiin von Vetsera. her tombstone says that [1]

so the article's heading needs to be changed. Antares911 22:17, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The article belongs under her name IN ENGLISH. She is Mary Vetsera, not Mary von Vetsera. She is catalogued in English card catalogues as "Vetsera, Mary, Baroness" [2] - Nunh-huh 22:28, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

she happens to be

1) Austrian, not english. so her name needs to be in German language, in order for it to be accurate and correct.

2) nobility. so the particle "von" definetly needs to be in. for more information, you can check out our own Wikipedia articles about nobility... cheers. Antares911 22:36, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If our article states that all nobles carry a "von", it's in error. It's an English encyclopedia, not an Austrian one. For gods sake let someone who knows something about the woman decide what her English name is, instead of coming in and changing things willy-nilly on "knowledge" extrapolated from a wikipedia article. I'll be happy to obtain more citations it you'll stop moving it around for a bit.- Nunh-huh 23:50, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Refs: How is Mary Vetsera indexed and referred to in various books?

Barkeley, Richard, The Road to Mayerling: Vetsera, Mary, Baroness

A Substantial Ghost, Violet Powell:Vetsera, Baroness Mary

My Past, Countess Marie Larisch: Mary Vetsera, also Baroness Mary Vetsera

My Royal Relatives, Marie Louise Countess Larisch von Wallersee-Wittelsbach: Vetsera, Mary

Secrets of a Royal House, Marie Louise Countess Larisch von Wallersee-Wittelsbach: Vetsera; Mary

The Lonely Empress: Elizabeth of Austria, Joan Haslip: Vetsera, Mary

Twilight of the Habsburgs, Alan Palmer: Vetsera, Mary

Crime at Mayerling: The Life and Death of Mary Vetsera, Georg Markus: Mary Vetsera

The Reluctant Empress, Brigitte Hamann: Vetsera, Mary

Jene Gräfin Larisch... (in German), Brigitte Sokop: Vetsera. Mary Baronesse

Nor is a "von" used in refering to Mary Vetsera's parents or relatives in any of these books: they are Baron Vetsera or Baroness Vetsera. No "von". This is the standard English version of her name. - Nunh-huh 04:40, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

her name was "von Vetsera"

then the heading needs to be "Baroness Mary Vetsera". but if you take a look at the links I provided, for example her tombstone clearly refers to her as "Mary Freiin (Baroness) von Vetsera", or are you implying that they got her tombstone wrong? and if you read any of the books the titles you have provided, you will see what her real name was. Nobility in Austria carried the particle "von" in her name, and her name was "von Vetsera", why is that so difficult to accept?

http://www.heiligenkreuz.at/Vetsera.htm

http://www.aeiou.at/aeiou.encyclop.v/v387096.htm

you can also check out the german language version of Wikipedia´s article to this

[3]

in Wikipedia, all the German and Austrian nobility (as well as some Swedish, etc...) are written with their particle(s), so what´s the problem here? Prince Otto von Bismarck is not kept as Otto Bismarck... Antares911 15:22, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Your implication that I haven't read the books I've cited is offensive, and needlessly so. I have, and she is referred to throughout these books as Mary Vetsera. This is how she is referred to in English. Why is this so hard for you to accept? Yes, sometimes (though not invariably), German writers refer to her as Mary, Freiin von Vetsera. But "Mary von Vetsera" is not used, and in English is so rare as to make someone who uses it consistently appear ill-informed. You ask what the problem is here: the problem is you want to apply one rule to all names, and that is not going to result in the names of people actually used in English. Of course "Otto von Bismarck" is referred to as such: no one (except you) has suggested he was "Otto Bismarck". But one most often refers to Eduard, Count Taaffe, or Eduard Taaffe, not Eduard Count von Taafe. One rule does not fit all. It's the same in English titles: there are both "Earl of X" and "Earl Y" with no "of": one size does not fit all. - Nunh-huh 19:26, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Stuff moved here from Wikipedia:Requested Moves

Her name in English is Baroness Mary Vetsera. That is how she appears in English books written on Mayerling, and it is how she is named in English card system catalogs. - Nunh-huh 22:35, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well then the article can also be headed as Baroness Mary Vetsera. you can also refer to Wikipedia´s own german language site article about this to see what her name was, and that was "von Vetsera" [4]. we don´t keep the article of Prince "Otto von Bismarck" as "Bismarck" or "Otto Bismarck" either... Antares911 15:29, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have no objections to her being at Baroness Mary Vetsera, as you suggest. - Nunh-huh 00:55, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

(P.S. the German Wikipedia knows nothing of English names, and is not even an infallible guide to German ones: it still falsely claims Cardinal Schönborn's surname is "Schonborn-Wiesentheid", which it is not. - Nunh-huh 00:55, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

(P.P.S. well i´m afraid in that case you don´t know much about german-language names, no offense)

I couldn't possibly take offense at a comment so ill-informed. In order for the Cardinal's surname to be "Schönborn-Wiesentheid", he would have to be a descendant of Franz Erwein Damian Graf von Schönborn-Wiesentheid (1776-1840): the cardinal is actually descended from that man's younger brother, Friedrich Karl Joseph Graf von Schönborn (1781-1849). - Nunh-huh 02:03, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

A couple of thoughts - 1) the important thing is what she is known as in English sources, not what her "real name" was. 2) it would be best if we could find recent sources in English about Mayerling - older sources are much more likely to anglicize indiscriminately than recent ones. A few good recent sources touching on the matter should be authoritative, if they agree. If they disagree, well, we should take it from there. john k 01:21, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Some of those cited above are reasonably recent: Crime at Mayerling: The Life and Death of Mary Vetsera is 1995, and The Road to Mayerling is 2003. - Nunh-huh 02:31, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That's good enough for me. john k 04:01, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Has anyone information re: a possibly related topic: Freiin von Pittarn zu Liebenthal und Zottig?

well I think I have made my point. German-language literature points out that her name was "von Vetsera", the sources I have already provided. I am in favour of authenticity (see discussion Peking or Beijing for example), but if no majority will be found for "Marie von Vetsera" (even though all the german and austrian nobility in Wikipedia is kept that way with particles), then I grudgingly will be fine with "Baroness Mary Vetsera" as well. her full and real name needs to be reflected in the article though.. Antares911 14:38, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Isn't it already? The article begins "Marie "Mary" Alexandrine Freiin von Vetsera. john k 15:08, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Support Mary Vetsera for article name, with no title preceding it. Gene Nygaard 23:21, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Copyright Violation

Several paragraphs of your article violate copyright of Cruise Scientific (see http://www.visualstatistics.net/East-West/Mayerling%20Tragedy/Mayerling%20tragedy.htm ) and were removed. For further information contact info@visualstatistics.net

Stolen text?

Text sections of considerable length are identical to text at www.xs4all.nl/~androom/index.htm?dead/story004.htm. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.55.91.66 (talk) 20:18, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

As far as I could see, there were about two (fairly florid) paragraphs that were taken from there. I believe I've removed all the offending material, and tried to keep the changes made sinse it was added. - Nunh-huh 21:48, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Suggested merges

I merged the "popular culture" items to Mayerling Incident (they were actually all already there), and removed the suggestion about not covering Mayerling here ... we need at least a summary of the incident, which is clearly part of Mary vetsera's biography. - Nunh-huh 10:34, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

dates (cross-posted from Talk:Mayerling Incident

Is the television movie by Anatole Litvak with Audrey Hepburn and Mel Ferrer from 1954 as stated in a now deleted section from Baroness Mary Vetsera or 1957 as stated here [i.e. Mayerling Incident]? Could the discrepancy be due to the theatrical release in Europe vs. TV broadcast in the US? Likewise Kronpriz Rudolf with Max von Thun, Vittoria Puccini and Omar Sharif; is it 2006 as in this article [Mayerling Incident] or 2007 per the deleted Mary Vetsera section? Robert Greer (talk) 17:24, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Update article and Mayerling / Rudolph articles according to NEW INFORMATION

http://www.onb.ac.at/services/presse_23385.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.62.117.24 (talk) 10:02, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

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An update about 2016?

"They will be made available to scholars and are likely to be exhibited in public in 2016."
This should be updated, but is there any information to be found?--Adûnâi (talk) 23:19, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

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