Talk:Balto-Slavic languages/Serbo-Croatian controversy

Latest comment: 14 years ago by Ivan Štambuk in topic Serbo-Croatian

Serbo-Croatian

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these are the introducing paragraphs of the article Serbo-Croatian

Serbo-Croatian, Croato-Serbian, or Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian (BCS)[1] (Srpskohrvatski, Hrvatskosrpski, or Bosanski/Hrvatski/Srpski, Cyrillic script: Cрпскохрватски, Xрватскосрпски), is a South Slavic language or diasystem. The term Serbo-Croatian is and has been used both as an umbrella term for all the dialects spoken in what is nowadays Serbia, Montenegro, Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina, and more importantly, as the official standard language of Yugoslavia from 1954 to 1990 (partially along with Slovene and Macedonian).

In its standardized form, it was based on the Neoštokavian subdialect of the Štokavian dialect system, and defined in Ekavian and Ijekavian literary variants, called "pronunciations". Unofficially, there were "Eastern" (based on the Serbian idiom) and "Western" (based on the Croatian and Bosnian idiom) literary variants, that eventuSally served as a basis for standard languages. By extension, Kajkavian and Čakavian dialects were often considered to be dialects of the Serbo-Croatian (while the Torlakian dialect was never recognized in mainstream linguistics), but they were not in official use.

With the breakup of Yugoslavia in the 1990s, its languages followed suit and Croatian, Serbian, and Bosnian became separate standard languages (Ausbausprachen); see differences between standard Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian. Currently, there is a movement to create a Montenegrin language, separating it from Serbian. Conversely, the term "Serbo-Croatian" declined in use, first from official documents and gradually from linguistic literature.

Today, use of the term "Serbo-Croatian" is controversial due to history, politics, and the variable meanings of the word language. Linguists are divided on questions regarding whether the use of the name should be deprecated. It is still used, for lack of a more succinct alternative, to denote the "daughter" languages as a collectivity. An alternative name has emerged abroad – Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian (BCS), when referring to the same dialectal base (stylised Neoštokavian) used for all the Serbo-Croatian standard languages. In the regional dialectology, the term Central South Slavic diasystem is sometimes used as a collective term, when discussing the intensive mutual influence of Serbo-Croatian dialects in the historical period. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cantabo07 (talkcontribs) 00:34, 13 January 2010 (UTC)Reply

Your point exactly...? Be concise and to-the-point, otherwise you're likely to get ignored like that suck-puppeteering "Gotho-Baltic" supremacist loon above you. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 04:44, 15 January 2010 (UTC)Reply
I agree with the last paragrpah, that the term "Serbo-Croatian" is controversial. Therefore I question the use of that term in the article. My personal opinion - which is not important to the article itself - is that the language serbo-croatian is a constructed language like Indonesian based on old-malay and modern-standard-arabic based on classical-arabic. Now that Yugoslavia doesn't exist anymore the once constructed Standard Serbo-Croatian isn't used anymore. Now we have three Standard varieties of the language, namely Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian... therefore with the break up of Yugoslavia Serbo-Croatian became a Diasystem. Further it is interesting that the Diasystem Czech-Sloavk is hardly named as a language anywhere, but Serbo-Croatian nearley everywhere. Therefore, in my opinion, the use of the term "Serbo-Croatian" should be questioned everywhere. Cantabo07 (talk) 21:09, 17 January 2010 (UTC)Reply
P.S. I don't need instructions how to comment and how to discuss, I am no kid ;-) Further I don't care if my contribution is going to be ignored or not. Those who pay attention are welcome to discuss, those who want to ignore it, shall do so and live in peace. Cantabo07 (talk) 21:15, 17 January 2010 (UTC)Reply
There is no such thing as "Croatian language", "Bosnian language", "Serbian language" or "Montenegrin language" - these are fabrications invented in the 1990s (and Montengerin more recently in the 2000s) by nationalists who are ashamed by the fact that their "enemies" appear to be speaking exactly the same language that they do. Indeed there is a controversy to the term Serbo-Croatian - but only in the nationalist circles. The rest of the world doesn't care. Most, if not all, modern historical linguistics publications in English language still abundantly use the term, and I assure you that their respective authors have no intention of changing their mind. Look up the works of Derksen, Kortlandt, Jasanoff, Dybo and other notable living and dead Balto-Slavists - it's Serbo-Croatian absolutely everywhere. To the extent this article is interested, the Neoštokovian dialectal basis preserving the mobile paradigms of PBSl. - it's absurd that we clone 1 column into 4 identical ones just to satisfy some nationalist egos.
It's amusing to see Croatian fundamentalist hallucinating that Serbo-Croatian language has something to do with Yugoslavia. Serbo-Croatian language was standardized more than century and a half ago, long before either Yugoslavia existed. Why do you conveniently ignore that historical fact? The practice of usage of that term has 2 centuries of continuous tradition in Slavicist circles.
The "Serbo-Croatian diasystem" aka "Central South Slavic language" exists solely in the head of the Brozović and his nationalist cronies who perpetually hallucinate about it striving to establish it as a politically more correct replacement for the term Serbo-Croatian. The notion of it was completely refuted by several linguists, most recently and most notably by Matasović 2008, see Poredbenopovijesna gramatika hrvatskoga jezika p. 64ff.
Czech-Slovak? Don't be silly, the differences between those two are 100 times more extensive than between modern-day standards of B/C/S. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 21:27, 22 January 2010 (UTC)Reply

Serbian language and Croatian language are only two versions of a SAME language, nothing else.

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These are illustrated in the following table:

South Slavic West Slavic East Slavic
Late Proto-slavic reconstruction Late Proto-Slavic meaning Old Church Slavonic Slovenian Croatian Serbian Bulgarian Macedonian Czech Slovak Polish Belarusian Russian Ukrainian
*gvězda star звѣзда zvezda zvijezda ѕвезда звезда ѕвезда hvězda hviezda gwiazda зорка звезда звізда
*květъ flower, bloom цвѣтъ cvet cvijet цвет цвете цвет květ kvet kwiat кветка цвет квітка
*tisošta tisošta тысѫшта tisoč tisuća хиљада хиляда илјада tisíc tisíc tysiąc тисяча тысяча тисяча

Example of translation into English language ( the 'croatian' table doesn't reflect the real language spoken by croatian people, but is only a definitelly unsuccessful attempt to change some words by the weird 'rules' that are only present in the heads of the nationalists. The 'serbian' table represents the language that's really spoken and written by the vaste majority of the people in Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia.)1

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English Croatian Serbian
English language: With regard to the general air quality in the city of Jerusalem is necessary to take urgent security measures to prevent poisoning of the population of the exhaust gases.

Potential application mijera that affect the flow of personal health status and which may contribute to better overall care of the population in the area of the city center would certainly be to reduce traffic stopper on fundamental Kostanjica where intersections are located tourist islands, such as the Christian church, these disciplinary measures are proposed primarily in the holiday season such as Easter and Christmas. Officers and NCOs from the army barracks in the city should contribute to the precise use of the prescribed measures, surveillance of traffic chaos at the check point and looking through use of aviation.

Croatian language: Glede opće kvalitete zraka u gradu Jeruzalemu potrebito je poduzeti žurne mjere sigurnosti kako bismo spriječili trovanje pučanstva ispušnim plinovima.

Možebitna primjena mijera koje utjeću na tijek osobnoga zdravstvenoga stanja a koje mogu pridonjeti boljoj općoj skrbi pučanstva na prostoru gradskoga središta svakako bi bilo smanjenje prometnoga čepa na bitnim raskrižjima gdije su smješteni turistički otoci, poput kršćanskih crkvi, ove stegovne mjere predlažu se ponajprije u vrijeme blagdana kao što su Uskrs i Božić. Časnici i dočasnici iz vojarni u gradu trebaju pridonjeti točnoj uporabi propisanih mjera, nadzorom prometnoga kaosa na nadzornim točkama i promatranjem kroz uporabu zrakoplovstva.

Serbian language:
  • (an official letter to the constitutional)

У погледу опште квалитета ваздуха у граду Јерусалиму потребно је да се предузму хитне мере безбедности како би спречили отровање становништва издувним гасовима. Евентуална примена мера које утичу на ток личног здравственог стања које могу да допринесу бољем општем збрињавању становништва на простору градског центра свакако би била смањење саобраћајног колапса на суштинским раскрсницама где су смештена туристичка острва, попут хришћанских цркава, ове дисциплинске мере предлажу се најпре у време празника као шта су Васкрс и Божић. Официри и подофицири из касарни у граду треба да допринесу тачној употреби прописаних мера, контролом саобраћајног хаоса на контролним тачкама и посматрањем преко употребе ваздухопловства.

  • (transcript of the latin alphabet)

(U pogledu opšte kvaliteta vazduha u gradu Jerusalimu potrebno je da se preduzmu hitne mere bezbednosti kako bi sprećili otrovanje stanovništva izduvnim gasovima. Eventualna primena mera koje utiću na tok ličnog zdravstvenog stanja koje mogu da doprinesu boljem opštem zbrinjavanju stanovništva na prostoru gradskog centra svakako bi bila smanjenje saobračajnog kolapsa na suštinskim raskrsnicama gde su smeštena turistička ostrva, poput hrišćanskih crkava, ove disciplinske mere predlažu se najpre u vreme praznika kao šta su Vaskrs i Božić. Oficiri i podoficiri iz kasarni u gradu treba da doprinesu tačnoj upotrebi propisanih mera, kontrolom saobračajnog haosa na kontrolnim tačkama i posmatranjem preko upotrebe vazduhoplovstva.)

Example of translation into different languages 2

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Croatian Bosnian Serbian English
Bijela sol za kuhanje kemijski je spoj natrija i klora. Bijela so za kuhanje je hemijski spoj natrijuma i hlora. Bela so za kuvanje je hemijsko jedinjenje natrijuma i hlora. White salt for cooking is a chemical compound of sodium and chlorine.
Vlak sa željezničkoga kolodvora krenut će točno u deset sati. Voz sa željezničke stanice krenut će tačno u deset sati. Voz sa železničke stanice krenuće tačno u deset sati/časova. The train station will start exactly at ten o'clock.

Different phonetics 1

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Feature Croatian Serbian English
Opposition -u/e burza berza stock-exchange
porculan porcelan porcelain
Opposition -u/i tanjur tanjir plate
Opposition -l/-o after o sol so salt
vol vo ox
kolčić kočić stick
Serbian often drops letter H in
the initial and medial position:
čahura čaura cartridge
hrvač rvač wrestler
hrđa rđa rust

Different phonetics 2

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Croatian language Latin altgriechische Aussprache Gerk alphabet|griech. Buchstabe byzantinische Aussprache Serbian language
b b [b] β [v] v
e e [ɛː] η [i] i
k oder c c [k] κ [k] k
u u [u̯] υ (nach Vokal) [v] v
k oder h ch [kʰ] χ [x] h

Different morphology

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Example 1:

English Croatian Serbian
add by pouring* dolijevati dolivati*
diarrhea proljev proliv
gulf, bay zaljev zaliv
to influence utjecati uticati

Example 2:

English Serbian Croatian
tobacco duvan duhan
to cook kuvati kuhati
dry suvo suho
deaf gluvo gluho

Example 3:

English Bosnian Croatian Serbian
point tačka točka tačka
correct tačno točno tačno
municipality općina općina opština
priest svećenik svećenik sveštenik
male student student student student
female student studentica studentica studentkinja
male professor profesor profesor profesor
female professor profesorica profesorica profesorka
scientist naučnik znanstvenik naučnik
translator prevodilac prevoditelj prevodilac
reader čitalac čitatelj čitalac
diver ronilac ronilac
(sometimes:
ronitelj)
ronilac

Different internationalisms

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Example different:

English Bosnian Croatian Serbian
to organise organizirati
organizovati
organizirati organizovati
to construct konstruisati
konstruirati
konstruirati konstruisati
But:
to analyse analizirati analizirati analizirati

Different historically 1

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http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/ward_1912/ottoman_empire_europe_1792.jpg

Historically, modern age internationalisms entered Bosnian and Croatian mostly through German and Italian, while Serbian received them through French and Russian, so different localisation patterns were established based on those languages. Also, Greek borrowings came to Serbian directly, but through Latin into Croatian:

English Croatian Serbian Note
Bethlehem Betlehem Vitlejem Through Latin in Croatian, through Greek in Serbian
Athens Atena Atina
Europe Europa Evropa
Cyprus Cipar Kipar
chlorine klor hlor
impedance impedanca impedansa Through French in Serbian
But:
licence licenca licenca "dozvola" is more common in both languages

Most of chemical element names are different: for international names, Bosnian and Croatian use -ij where Serbian has -ijum (uranijuranijum). In some native names, Bosnian and Croatian have -ik where Serbian has -(o)nik (kisikkiseonik(oxygen), vodikvodonik(hydrogen)). Yet others are totally different (dušikazot (nitrogen), kositarkalaj (tin)). Some are the same: srebro (silver), zlato (gold), bakar (copper).

Various dictionary

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English In Serbia In Croatia In Bosnia
one thousand hiljada tisuća hiljada
January[2] januar siječanj januar
factory fabrika tvornica fabrika
tvornica
rice pirinač riža riža
carrot šargarepa mrkva mrkva
trousers pantalone hlače hlače
bread hleb kruh hljeb
spinach spanać špinat špinat
football fudbal nogomet fudbal
train voz vlak voz
wave talas val talas
person lice osoba lice
osoba
uncivil nevaspitan neodgojen neodgojen
one's own sopstveno vlastito vlastito
sopstveno
road[3] put
drum
cesta
put
put
džada
road toll drumarina
putarina
cestarina putarina
dad tata tata
ćaća
tata
babo
tomato paradajz rajčica paradajz
English Serbian Croatian Bosnian
to accept prihvatati prihvaćati prihvatati
happy, lucky srećan sretan sretan
srećan
to comprehend shvatati shvaćati shvatati

Names of the months

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In the Croatian language months have Slavic names, while Serbian and Bosnian use the same set of international Latin-derived names as English. But Slavic names may also be used in the Bosnian language as well (although, rarely understood); Latin-derived names are preferred.

English Croatian Serbian Bosnian
January siječanj januar januar
February veljača februar februar
March ožujak mart mart
April travanj april april
May svibanj maj maj
June lipanj jun juni
July srpanj jul juli
August kolovoz avgust august
September rujan septembar septembar
October listopad oktobar oktobar
November studeni novembar novembar
December prosinac decembar decembar

Example of other differences 1

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Croatian Bosnian Serbian German
William Shakespeare William Shakespeare Vilijam Šekspir oder Вилијам Шекспир William Shakespeare
München Minhen Minhen oder Минхен München
Zürich Zürich Cirih oder Цирих Zürich
Bruxelles Brisel Brisel oder Брисел Brüssel, frz. Bruxelles
New York New York Njujork oder Њујорк New York
SZO oder WHO WHO SZO oder СЗО WHO

Example of other differences 2

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Croatian Bosnian Serbian German
Dobar tek! (kajkav.) oder U slast! Prijatno! Guten Appetit!
tjedan (kajkav.) sedmica, hevta (türk.) nedelja (kirchenslaw.), sedmica Woche
sat (türk.) sat, sahat (türk.) čas (in dieser Bed. aus dem Russ.),[4]
sat (türk.)
Stunde
otok ostrvo ostrvo Insel
vrt bašča bašta Garten
vlak (tschech.) voz Zug
kruh hljeb, somun (türk.) hleb Brot
talijanski italijanski italienisch
nitko; svatko niko; svako niemand; jeder

Example of other differences 3

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Croatian Bosnian Serbian German
Španjolska Španija Spanien
priopćiti saopćiti saopštiti mitteilen
spol pol Geschlecht

Same languages: here's a list of synonims that can be used in both variants of the Serbo-Croatian language.

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Englis Croatian Serbian
Compare Usporedba Поређење (Poređenje)
Europe Europa Европа (Evropa)
Netherlands Nizozemska Холандија (Holandija)
Italians Talijani Италијани (Italijani)
Universe Svemir Васиона (Vasiona)
Spine Kralježnica Кичма (Kičma)
Air Zrak Ваздух (Vazduh)
Education Odgoj Васпитање (Vaspitanje)
Week Tjedan Седмица (Sedmica)
History Povijest Историја (Istorija)
Pantaloons Hlače Панталоне (Pantalone)
Belly Trbuh Стомак (Stomak)
Science Znanost Наука (Nauka)
Personally Osobno Лично (Lično)
Persona Osoba Лице (Lice)
United Nations Ujedinjeni Narodi Уједињене Нације (Ujedinjene Nacije)
Bread Kruh Хлеб (Hleb)
Artificial Umjetno Вештачки (Veštački)
Cross Križ Крст (Krst)
Democracy Demokracija Демократија (Demokratija)
Detection Spoznaja Сазнање (Saznanje)
Island Otok Острво (Ostrvo)
Officer Časnik Официр (Oficir)
Road traffic Cestovni promet Друмски саобраћај (Drumski saobraćaj)
Autobahn Autocesta Аутопут (Autoput)
Length Duljina Дужина (Dužina)
Association Udruga Удружење (Udruženje)
Factory Tvornica Фабрика (Fabrika)
General Opće Опште (Opšte)
Christ Krist Христoс (Hristos)
I'm sorry Oprosti Извини (Izvini)
Geography Zemljopis Географија (Geografija)
Week Tjedan Седмица (Sedmica)
January Siječanj Јануар (Januar)
Passport Putovnica Пасош (Pasoš)
Retirees Umirovljenici Пензионери (Penzioneri)
Security Council Vijeće sigurnosti Савјет безбједности (Savet bezbednosti)
Outdoor Vanjski Спољашњи (Spoljašnji)
Own Vlastito Сопствено (Sopstveno)
Level Razina Ниво (Nivo)
Press Tisak Штампа (Štampa)
Worker Djelatnik Радник (Radnik)
Decade, century, millennium Desetljeće stoljeće tisućljeće Деценија, век, миленијум (Decenija, vek, milenijum)
Communication Priopćenje Саопштење
Native language standard Materinski jezićni standard Матерњи језички стандард

Same alphabet letters

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http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Scripts_in_Europe_(1901).jpg

  • Croatian alphabet (30 letters): A B C Č Ć D Dž Đ E F G H I J K L Lj M N Nj O P R S Š T U V Z Ž
  • Serbian scripts (30 letters): A B C Č Ć D Dž Đ E F G H I J K L Lj M N Nj O P R S Š T U V Z Ž or А Б В Г Д Ђ Е Ж З И Ј К Л Љ М Н Њ О П РС Т Ћ У Ф Х Ц Ч Џ Ш
  • Bosnian letter (30 letters): A B V G D Đ E Ž Z I J K L Lj M N Nj O P R S T Ć U F H C Č Dž Š

Map of standard language „Central south Slavic“

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Difference Serbian language, Croatian language and Bosnian language

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Europe_linguistic_map_1907.JPG (Languages in Europe 1900-...) http://haven.apolyton.net/maps/Europe/europe1800_1850c_lang.jpg (Language in Europe 1800-1900)


Map of various national dialects and subdialects in mix subdialects

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http://www.muturzikin.com/carteseurope/5.htm (Dialec map in Europe)

South Slavic continum and Central South Slavic diasystem

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Dialect Sub-Dialect Bulgarian Macedonian Serbian Montenegrin Bosnian Croatian Slovenian
Torlakian x x x
Štokavian Kosovo-Resava x
Šumadija-Vojvodina x
Zeta-South Sandžak x x x
Eastern Herzgovinian x x x x
Eastern Bosnian x x
Western Ikavian x x
Slavonian x
Čakavian x
Kajkavian x x

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/2/28/20080408171819!Scripts_in_Europe.PNG Script and language

Čakavian and Kaykavian dialects is exclusive Croatian dialect, not serbo

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakavian_dialect Croatian diakect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kajkavian_dialect Croatian Kaykavian dialect

Not neoštokavian dialect, neoštokavian is thre differents dialects

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Neoštokavian:

  1. Croatian neoštokavian ikavian and western-ijekavian (western štokavian and Dubrovnik)
  2. Serbian neoštokavian ekavian and estern-ijekavian (estern štokavian and Užice)
  1. ^ Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian
  2. ^ 1) All month names are different. See below for full table.
  3. ^ 2) This is an excellent example of foreign influences. "Put" and "cesta" are Slavic, "drum" is Greek and "džada" is Turkish. Moreover, the central difference lies in the fact that Croatian, unlike Serbian or Bosnian, has a tradition of purism, as is the case with the Czech, Slovak, Hungarian and German languages.
  4. ^ vgl. Odbor za standardizaciju srpskog jezika, Odluka br. 1, Punkt 2.0.