Talk:Bala Lake

Bala Watersports

I added that little sentance at the bottom, feel free to expand. - iGod 07:54, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Importance

Looking at the other articles, and the web traffic this article recieves, it does not deserve High status. Dropping to mid.

I've heard that Bala lake used to be a town and they flooded it from another vally. When the waters really low you can see the tops of church spire ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.26.255.209 (talk) 22:17, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Wrong lake, never flooded from another valley, no town. Have a look at Llyn Celyn for something nearer the truth, but even here it was a village not a town, and it didn't involve flooding from another valley, and no church spire either.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   22:38, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Article title

Since at least one editor seems adamant that the term "Bala Lake" should not be used, even though it is the title of the article (and the name used by several tourist information sites), perhaps the article should be moved to Llyn Tegid, rather than the redirect being the other way around? Tony Holkham (Talk) 16:42, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

I agree. The official name is Llyn Tegid as represented on OS maps and used by Natural Resources Wales the organisation responsible for managing lakes and rivers in Wales.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   18:11, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

I don't know how to do this, as Llyn Tegid already exists as a redirect to Bala Lake. Tony Holkham (Talk) 19:01, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

I would like to point out that there is no English or Welsh-only OS map which is bilingual in the context of Wales. Although the paper OS Explorer map solely uses Llyn Tegid, and the title on the cover is 'Cadair Idris & Llyn Tegid', it uses a bilingual name for Tal-y-llyn Lake (Llyn Mwyngil in Welsh) and the online OS map uses the bilingual 'Llyn Tegid/Bala Lake' though I had to zoom in to see it with only the Welsh name seen when zooming out. It should also be noted that OS is the same source that uses the bilingual 'Afon Dyfi/River Dovey' although the anglicised spelling for that river is seldom used nowadays so it is not necessarily a reliable source to determine the most common name. According to Wikipedia:Article titles#Use commonly recognizable names in the Manual of Style Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources). There is also Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Multiple local names which is used when a place is known by more than one name and states 'one solution is to follow English usage where it can be determined, and to adopt the name used by the linguistic majority where English usage is indecisive'. Articles tend to primarily use the most common name with other names also given in the first instance with the common used thereafter. I also noticed the move discussion below did not mention usage by the mainstream media which is a reliable source (as far as I am aware the Denbighshire Free Press uses 'Bala Lake' while the BBC uses the two names interchangeably as it does with Aberdyfi/Aberdovey). I would also like to point out although the preference for Welsh-language names over similar-sounding anglicisations is stronger in west Wales (according to the anglicisation article) I think the name 'Bala Lake' has persisted because it is completely different to 'Llyn Tegid' like with the town on the Mawddach estuary which remains well known in English as 'Barmouth' not 'Abermaw'. Tk420 (talk) 15:13, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

Just a note for the record; the online OS mapping that I've looked at today (three different sites using OS material) uses the (Eng/Cymr) form 'Bala Lake/Llyn Tegid at 25K scale mapping and 'BALA LAKE/LLYN TEGID' at 50K, though switches to simply 'Llyn Tegid' when further zoomed out. Oddly, when zoomed in further than the 25K mapping, it switches to (Cymr/Eng) 'Llyn Tegid / Bala Lake', as noted above. It would seem that OS applies different language policies at different scales (and online v. print) - or conceivably are just disorganised in this matter! Geopersona (talk) 13:03, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

OS might not have a consistent language policy e.g. it uses the bilingual Aberdyfi/Aberdovey for the village at the Dyfi estuary when I zoom in but just uses the anglicised Aberdovey after zooming out although the Welsh language spelling is more common locally and is favoured by the Welsh Government and the Gwynedd Council. My guess is that OS might be following the Westminster government's policy considering the anglicised Aberdovey is used by agencies once nationalised by the central government e.g. Royal Mail and BT but I have so far not been able to find a straight answer. Tk420 (talk) 18:42, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

This issue has come to my attention again after the second of at least two attempts this year to change the name of the lake in the Bala, Gwynedd article about the town although this article has not been moved. I have added an entry to Talk:Bala, Gwynedd to advise readers to see this talk page to keep the discussion about the name of the lake in one place. On the name of the lake, I have just run a Google Trends comparison and there have been more searches on Google for 'Bala Lake' than 'Llyn Tegid' in the UK over both the past year and the past five years as well as since 2004. This is unfortunately not divided by the users' language but the preference for 'Bala Lake' appears to be slightly stronger in searches from England than from Wales and it is used in related searches e.g. 'bala lake weather' and 'camping bala lake' which suggests that Bala Lake is still the more familiar name among native English speakers especially from outside the local area. I vaguely remember seeing something in the Wikipedia Manual of Style advising editors to try to think from the point of view of someone who is not an expert on the topic and it has occurred to me that readers from outside the local area especially tourists, who make up the bulk of English speakers entering the local area which is predominantly Welsh-speaking according to Wikipedia article of the town quoting the census, would be less likely to be experts on the topic. Unfortunately, I did not record the guideline and the closest I can find is Wikipedia:Make technical articles understandable although this is not necessarily a technical article.

It has also since occurred to me that another reason the name 'Bala Lake' has persisted, as well as sounding completely different to 'Llyn Tegid', is the presence of the Bala Lake Railway which uses 'Bala Lake' in its name. A similar example of a tourist attraction having an effect on a common as opposed to 'official' name is at Hampton Loade in Shropshire. Strictly speaking, Hampton Loade is the hamlet on the east side of the River Severn opposite Hampton although the whole area is commonly known as 'Hampton Loade' due to the presence of Hampton Loade railway station on the Severn Valley Railway which is actually on the Hampton side of the river. However, the practice could have started during the railway's commercial history before its closure in 1963. Tk420 (talk) 11:53, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

References

Requested move 6 July 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 08:42, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

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Bala Lake → Llyn Tegid – Name of Lake as used by Government Departments as per here and here, Gwynedd County Council here (on page 10). It is also the primary name on Ordnance survey maps (although Bala L. is also cited as an alternative) here  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   20:02, 6 July 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. Dekimasuよ! 08:19, 17 July 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. Dekimasuよ! 20:31, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

• Support. Although I have always heard it referred to as Bala Lake, I think it is right to use the Welsh name. Tony Holkham (Talk) 20:38, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
• Is Bala Lake the commoner name nonetheless? There's anecdotal evidence from Tony and the Bala Lake Railway. Might be good to look at usage. —innotata 02:13, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
• Comment : what is the most common name in English? 83.228.160.33 (talk) 20:02, 17 July 2018 (UTC).
• NO this is agenda driven. Its common name in English is Bala Lake and has always been. A simple google search supports this assertion: 11.3 million hits for Bala Lake to 77,600 hits for Llyn Tegid. Regardless of the above agenda to use its Welsh name locally in Wales, the greater part of the UK speaks English and thus under WP:COMMONNAME it is Bala Lake. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.141.61.59 (talk) 11:38, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

• Actually 138K hits to 58K hits; it's necessary to put search terms in quotation marks on Google. Dekimasuよ! 08:42, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Areal extent of lake

My own measurements suggest that Llyn Tegid amounts to only 4.17 sq km. The discrepancy is perhaps accounted for by the fact that the quoted figure comes from https://rsis.ramsar.org/ris/535 and, if the line on the map defining the extent of the Ramsar site is accurate then it rather exceeds the area of the actual waterbody, taking in land particularly at the southwest end. This is of course original research on my part so cannot be included in either article but does suggest what true figures might look like if and when an editor finds a suitable reference out there! cheers Geopersona (talk) 19:39, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Confusing sentence about size

" It was the largest natural body of water in Wales before its level was raised by Thomas Telford to provide water for the Ellesmere Canal (later Llangollen Canal). "
If the level was raised, one would expect the lake to become even larger, very likely in area and most certainly in volume; anyway, the point is, either it was STILL the largest etc. (in which case the sentence is badly phrased: it should have been "it was already the largest... even before its level was raised...) or it wasn't the largest anymore, in which case we should be explicitly told so - and why. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.66.3.116 (talk) 14:38, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

I think the point is that it was the largest natural body of water prior to this event, but though it was larger afterwards, it could no longer be considered natural but artificial. So it was the largest natural body of water in Wales but is no longer. As an aside, the modification is less than that which was made to some other lakes/lochs in the UK and some will still consider it largely natural but that's a judgement call. Geopersona (talk) 06:34, 22 May 2022 (UTC)