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Talk:Antoni Gaudí/Archive 2

< Talk:Antoni Gaudí
Latest comment: 3 years ago by Jdvillalobos in topic Re: Catalan
Archive 1 Archive 2

Wikipedia is not for political propaganda

Latest comment: 10 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The word 'Catalonia' or 'Catalunya' appear 68 times and the word 'Antoni' only 28.

That's just because he is refered as Gaudí in the text (over 300 times). Please notice also that Barcelona apeears more often than Catalonia in the text.--Pere prlpz (talk) 19:48, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Catalan deletions

Latest comment: 10 years ago25 comments5 people in discussion

Describing Gaudí as "Spanish Catalan" is a compromise that needs to stay in unless WP:CONSENSUS changes so please do not delete either word without discussing it here on the talk page. The other deletion was accompanied by a deceptive edit summary that claimed it was a revert due to a non-existing reference. There was no revert, it was an outright deletion of a well-referenced claim that was slightly garbled. I adjusted the wording so that it conforms to what the source says. The source is clearly readable through Google Books ebook access. Please do not make more controversial deletions without consensus here on the talk page. Elizium23 (talk) 14:09, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Dear User, I happen to 'own' the referenced book. This is something that some editors on Wikipedia do not seem to realize. Books in paper also exist. This book, which is, in my opinion, influenced by the current nationalistic uproar of later times, does not state anywhere that Gaudí himself claimed either in writing or in any other way that he was personally supporting such a thing as "Catalonia statehood". Not in page 4, 25, or anywhere else. Hence revert. As for the so called consensus, I would like to know what you mean by that... Because as far as I see, there are no pages in WP where this happens. Catalan is NOT a nationality. At Picasso it does not say Spanish Andalusian, the same as in Barak Obama's article does not say that he is American Hawaiian. Wikipedia is full of people trying to use it for political reasons and this is a blatant example of it. Arcillaroja (talk) 14:38, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
It is a compromise solution that exists because of the very reason that Spanish nationalists persist in deleting the "Catalan" and Catalan nationalists persist in deleting the "Spanish" and there have been quite a few edit wars over this when some nationalist on whatever side barges in and insists on deleting information like so. So we would all appreciate if you adhere to WP:NPOV and not take a nationalistic side when editing the article, and please not edit-war against cnosensus before it changes, as you have already begun. Therefore I have deleted his nationality entirely, as it satisfies WP:OPENPARA well enough to say he is from Reus and a figurehead of Catalan modernism. How is that compromise? Elizium23 (talk) 15:54, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
I think it is a good option. I do not intend to adhere to any side. He was born in Spain. Whether he was born in the Canary Islands or in Catalonia is not really very informative for the average reader. The fact is that his figure is being used by certain sectors of political nationalism to create some sort of Catalan national identity which according to them should be in direct opposition to the Spanish national identity as a whole. If people want to promote their ideas is just fine, but please not in wikipedia. Thanks. Arcillaroja (talk) 19:04, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
Well, I do think that the original paragraph was perfectly okay (Spanish Catalan). It's very informative for the average reader. Where is the lack NPOV? The Scots are described as "Scottish" (not as "British", see David Hume), but I'm not in favor of describing Gaudí just as "Catalan" at all. Does the word "Catalan" offend you, Arcillaroja? Where's the Catalan nationalist bias? Is just saying that Catalonia exists (as a region, not state) nationalist bias? Please, don't say you're politically neutral, because you're not. I'm not goig to start an edit war, but I really think that Spanish Catalan is what the compromise should be, as Elizium23 first said. There was no problem at all. Thanks.--Fauban 13:01, 6 December 2013 (UTC)


Is this answer really intended for me? It seems to me that Fauban should improve his English knowledge before debating semantic nuances. Futhermore, the political constitution of the UK and of Spain are very different indeed. Perhaps the issue is in itself too close to the editor. In any case I find the option reached very good. And I think your decision of not warring regarding this is issue is wise. Arcillaroja (talk) 15:47, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
Arcillaroja, your English skills can't very good either, because when Elizium23 wrote: "Describing Gaudí as "Spanish Catalan" is a compromise that needs to stay in unless WP:CONSENSUS changes so please do not delete either word without discussing it here on the talk page [...]", you just edited the article to remove the word "Catalan" again. Did you even read (or understand) his post? How can you summarize this edit "as per talk page"? At least I can understand what has been written here, and it's not just about "semantics".
Then you wrote: "Perhaps the issue is in itself too close to the editor (= me, I guess)". Your edits show that you are a Spanish nationalist and an anti-Catalanist, so the issue is itself also very close to you. While everybody is entitled to his opinion, you cannot say you're neutral. Stop acting as if your ideology was the only right one. Maybe it's not your intention, but you sound prepotent, and your edits look biased.--Fauban 09:30, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Dear, you do not need to insult or accuse me. It is not very constructive and does not add much to this discussion or to the article. Ad hominem assumptions don't work here. I try to neutralize nationalistic content. All nationalistic content. Assuming who I am and what my motivations are is counterproductive and also wrong. As you said before, you think that Catalonia (region) is very interesting and that people should know that it exist. Therefore it should be mentioned in the lede. This is an example of WP:UNDUE. Furthermore, Spanish Catalan does not mean much in common English. Because Spanish and Catalan are in two different categories hyperonomic/hyponomic. You see? When I say that your English might be slightly less suited for this kind of discussion, I mean that perhaps these nuances are a bit to difficult for you at this moment. I also think this because of the comments you state yourself about your English knowledge in your personal page. As I said before I think that the agreement reached so far is good as it is. Arcillaroja (talk) 09:12, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Whatever, the one that started acting condescendingly was you. Your comments on the Catalan Way article talk page [1] speak by themselves, as the other contributors clearly saw and pointed out. But since you've already been unable to explain the edit you described "as per talk page", I've decided to stop feeding trolls.--Fauban 11:39, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
My cherished Fauban, you see? Just another baseless personal accusation... And again, not related to the article we are discussing. This all does not improve the whole matter very much, my friend. Once again I think, nevertheless, that your last decision is very appropriate. Arcillaroja (talk) 14:07, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
I'd like to know what is exactly wrong with "Antoni Gaudí i Cornet (Catalan pronunciation: [ənˈtɔni ɣəwˈði]; 25 June 1852 – 10 June 1926) was a Spanish architect born in Reus, in the Catalonia region of Spain," . I took it from a similar biographical article from Gauí that is also a very important Catalan artist from the 20th century. My objection with Spanish Catalan is that it does not mean anything in English. Therefore I feel that the wording of the Dalí article would be more appropriate. Arcillaroja (talk) 08:58, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
Well, I speak English natively, and it is clear to me what "Spanish Catalan" means. It is a nod to the fact that he enjoyed Spanish citizenship but also Catalan nationality and it is a compromise between nationalists who always wish to call him only Spanish (like the above) and nationalists who wish to call him only Catalan (who have not appeared here lately). There is a chronic edit war and content dispute among these two sets of nationalists. The only way to prevent this is to use compromise wording, which of course you object to because it mentions his Catalan nationality. I am sorry but this is the consensus and I will not change my position. Elizium23 (talk) 14:26, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
I'm sorry your are not willing to rethink your position. I'm not a Spanish nationalist but believe what you want. I honestly thought that the formula used for Salvador Dalí's lede (One of the greatest masters of his time, and a very Catalan character indeed) would be better. The fact is that Dalí's figure has not been claimed by Nationalists because he was very controversial and scorned nationalist (from every side) on several occasions. Hence, not interesting for the Catalan cause and therefore no problem in calling him a Spaniard born in Catalonia in Wikipedia.
Gaudí, on the other hand was closer to a nationalistic approach and therefore he is more suitable for the nationalistic cause. That's why we have the awkward Spanish Catalan formula or consensus or whatever you want to called it. You tell me why the one figure has no pressure in regards to its nationality and the other one does... it's not good for this article and it is not good for wikipedia as a whole. In my view this is clearly controversial and it should be avoided. That you want to make a clear distinction between nationality and statehood in the lede is VERY controversial in it self. Just don't. He was Spanish and was born in Catalonia. That is a fact. The other definitions do enter in disputes and controversies. Just don't.... Arcillaroja (talk) 11:11, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

If there is no answer then we should go ahead with the edit? It seems not very stable indeed Arcillaroja (talk) 08:35, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

No, you are the only one arguing for it, and you do not have consensus. Elizium23 (talk) 17:15, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
Don't see any consensus here! if you can't bring any other argumetns il edit the lede accordingly Arcillaroja (talk) 08:23, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
Indeed there is clearly NO consensus to remove or change the phrase (Spanish Catalan). So with the lack of consensus the lede is not to be changed from that. Arnoutf (talk) 19:04, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
DearArnoutf, thank you for your comment. I'd like to remind you that Wikipedia is not a Democracy. I do think that consensus is very desirable. Please join the discussion in Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Request_board#RfC:_Citizenship_Issue_for_Spanish_Catalan_biographical_articles Arcillaroja (talk) 07:51, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
Where the outcome is inconclusive. In other words, there is no strong support for changing article status quo. A single editor doing that nonetheless is pretty close to claiming ownership (WP:OWN) of that topic.
Also I am familiar with Wikipedia not being a democracy. It is to easy to outvote common sense based on a quickly compiled survey to which supporters are invited. For that reason we do want consensus (ie general agreement, or at least no continued objection) to change long standing texts, once they are opposed. In this case the phrase "Catalan Spanish" was the long standing version, and there is clearly no consensus to change that. Arnoutf (talk) 17:19, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

This talk thread was noted in an RfC and I wanted to bring another perspective to the discussion here. It appears clear that there is a single editor pushing a POV. I am in full agreement with consensus that Spain is the country of birth and Catalan is the nationality - recognized as such by both Spain and Catalonia - and therefore Spanish Catalan is the apt term. No factual argument has been presented by the other side as to why this should not be the case. A lot of verbiage, but no factual argument. Factchecker25 (talk) 12:47, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Factchecker25, I have answered you at the RfC. Please keep a friendly tone. It would be useful to keep discussing it in a single location. In any case I'm open to discussion. As i said in thee RfC, Catalonia it is not a nation (in the legal sense, according to the Spanish constitution). And please refrain yourself, this is present fact, not my opinion. The question of historic nationalities is highly controversial. My opinion, is that we could avoid the whole thing by mentioning the place of birth. The whole question of nationality is rather irrelevant and only promotes the discussion. I don't think that Wikipedia should take part on this. Spanish Catalan implies that there are two nations, and at this moment, according to the constitution, this is not the case. Arcillaroja (talk) 13:15, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
Most nations are ethnic which is a anthropological/sociological not a legal definition (A nation state is not the same as a nation). Recognition of Catalonia's Statues of Autonomy seems to allow capture this.
The place of birth might be relevant if it is at least as notable as Moscow or New York, otherwise it holds about as much information as mentioning "Lutjebroek" as place of birth. Arnoutf (talk) 17:03, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
The Spanish constitution recognizes three nationalities: Galician, Basque, and Catalan. The statutes of autonomy of Catalonia also recognizes Catalan as a nationality. Therefore, it is appropriate to refer to someone as Catalan. Encyclopedias do not deal in implications, but realities, and the reality is that a person born in Catalonia is considered both Spanish, due to being born within the borders of Spain, and Catalan, due to ALSO being born within a historically distinct region of Spain with its own unique history, heritage, and customs. The consensus from other editors clearly agrees with this position. Factchecker25 (talk) 01:03, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Dear Factchecker25. Not only those "nationalities" are recognized by the Spanish constitution. Also others such as Andalusia are recognized as "nationalities". Yet, I don't see that Pablo Picasso is a "Spanish Andalusian" painter. I see a tendentious use of Wikipedia in order to promote National identity. But that is my opinion, of course. What is not my opinion is the fact that the reform of the statute of Catalonia was rejected by the constitutional court because the word "nation" was mentioned in it. The articles containing this word were derogated. I honestly think that it is wrong to take a stand in all this discussion. Why not setting a neutral wording? Arcillaroja (talk) 18:39, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Arcillaroja: (1) Per your own comment: Discuss this at a single location
(2) This is not the Picasso article, so any talk about that article should be done there.
(3) I do not believe the English word "nation" was mentioned in any Spanish statute. If you claim the use of that word was reason for rejecting, please provide a source that claims that. Arnoutf (talk) 18:47, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Catalan culture not same as politics

Latest comment: 7 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The statement that he was "always in favour of Catalonian culture but was reluctant to become politically active to campaign for its autonomy" is illogical. It presupposes that support for Catalan culture means support for Catalan political autonomy. That is entirely false, as these are two quite different matters. I am partly of Scottish ancestry. I am "always in favour of Scottish culture", but strongly opposed to Scottish political autonomy.Royalcourtier (talk) 19:17, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Latest comment: 7 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Catalan not Spanish

Latest comment: 4 years ago5 comments4 people in discussion

Gaudí would have never described himself as Spanish. He was Catalan. It should be changed. Eccekevin (talk) 21:19, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Catalan is just a Spaniard that lives in the Spanish region of Catalonia. It makes sense to make that difference when you are talking about two Spaniards and you want to specify from which region they're from, but Spain only recognize one nation and citizenship: Spanish. TheRichic   (Messages here) 11:39, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
Just like Basques, Catalans are an European indigenous ethnic group. Antoni Gaudí would never describe himself as Spanish, since he was a convinced Catalan. When Antoni Gaudí was born, there wasn't a "region of Catalonia" (established with 1978 Spanish Constitution). But he was still a Catalan. And references to Catalan people appear in numerous sources centuries before Spain even existed (History of Catalonia#First references to the name Catalonia). I see you self-identify as a "Spanish Monarchist" in your user page. I suggest that you leave your political ideology aside here, and respect sources and consensus. Labeling Antoni Gaudí as "Spanish" is being dishonest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.53.29.143 (talk) 18:48, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
My ideology is irrelevant as well as the history of the Spanish regions. This is an encyclopedia, we use facts and legally, Spain is what it is. TheRichic   (Messages here) 19:16, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not the scenario for the Catalan independence struggles. It is completely irrelevant how Gaudí would have described himself, in fact every Catalan who says he/she is not Spanish has a Spanish passport, masters the Spanish language, has a DNI and pays taxes in Spain. How do you call that? Spanish. All the same, you can't assure what Gaudí thought and he didn't even leave a writing stating that kind of political thought, it is just your assumption and Wikipedia is not written based on assumptions. I could also assume the sky is green, but I cannot write Wikipedia according to that. Gaudí wasn't even and independentist and his layouts were mostly in Spanish. By the way, Catalans are not an indigenous (pure?) people, how can someone say that? It shows your complete bias. Not even Catalan is an "indigenous" language, it comes from vulgar Latin and Latin from Sanskrit and Greek. Yes, when Gaudí was born there was not a Catalonia autonomous region (Constitución de 1978), there was Spain. The Principality of Catalonia does not exist since 1715 after the War of the Spanish Succession and the establishment of the Borbons, that was the end of the Crowns of Aragon and Valencia to which Catalonia and the County of Barcelona were subordinated. Why don't you start changing all Catalans' nationalities in WP? Dalí is described as Spanish, for example. The only WP that describes Catalans' nationality as Catalan is the Catalan Wikipedia. The objective writing here is that Gaudí's nationality was Spanish, since Catalonia has never been an independent country or republic, it has been part of Spain since 1469 when Fernando de Aragón and Isabel de Castilla got married and unified their crowns. By the way, as early as the 8th century, in times of Queen Urraca, the term España was used. --Jdvillalobos (talk) 17:16, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

shouldn't we mention that "gaudy" comes from his name?

Latest comment: 5 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

as far as I know, the word "gaudy" originates from this individual's name — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.12.80.218 (talk) 00:38, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

Not likely; see wikt:gaudy. Nitpicking polish (talk) 14:05, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Antoni Gaudi was Catalan!

Latest comment: 4 years ago6 comments5 people in discussion

It makes me very sad to see this anti-Catalonian discourse, which seems to obsess the people here who don't want to accept the fact that Antoni Gaudi was Catalan, not Spanish. Why should it be contested that man who was born, lived and died in his home country Catalonia, spoke only Catalan language and is the most admired Catalan in history, is Catalan? I can't understand you!

You say you won't accept political propaganda in Wikipedia, but why you allow this false information to exist here? If insisting Gaudi as Spaniard which he was not, is not propaganda then what is? Wikipedia seems to be extremely fraudulent place! Wikipedia can not, will not and is not able to steal the national identity of Catalans! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:999:52:E4F5:C0A7:8812:8523:680A (talk) 20:21, 6 March 2019 (UTC)


You are right. During his lifetime, Antoni Gaudí was very clear about the fact that he was a Catalan. And sources do respect that[1]
Antoni Gaudí i Cornet was a Catalan architect who has become internationally recognised as one of the most prodigious experts in his discipline, as well as one of the top exponents of modernism. His exceptional ground-breaking genius made him the inventor of a unique, personal and incomparable architectural language that defies classification

Even though some users seem to be trolling about this--88.1.201.82 (talk) 01:15, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

And other sources say otherwise.[2][3] Saying that he's Catalan is the same thing that saying he's Spaniard because it's the same thing, country and nation. This is always controversial and that's why i eliminated months ago any reference to its nationality. I don't know why you guys start another war. TheRichic   (Messages here) 19:13, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
So you are telling that Catalonia and Spain, Catalan and Spanish national identities and languages are the same thing? You must then also think that Basque language is completely symmetric with Spanish and no one can bear Basque nationality because Basque country is part of the Spanish state?

Catalonian and Basque people both have strong national identity, which includes their own languages, history, heritage and countries. Totally senseless to argue about facts! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:999:51:7B8F:F42B:C2EC:573:8CE (talk) 09:39, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes, they are the same. It's obvious that Spanish, Basque and Catalan are not the same language, but the people that spoke them belong to the same society and country and they culture is the same. Just because we have other languages it doesn't make us different. And the 90% of the history of those regions are the same history of the rest of Spain. And no that doesn't includes their own countries because they've always belonged to other country. TheRichic   (Messages here) 18:34, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Edit warring

What's going on here? The fact that Gaudí was a Catalan architect shouldn't even be a matter of discussion. I remember that a while ago, TheRichic agreed on this lead: Antoni Gaudí i Cornet was a Catalan architect. But now I see that you are edit warring about this. Why are you doing this? --Beethoven (talk) 17:10, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Re: Catalan

Latest comment: 3 years ago14 comments7 people in discussion

There's an archive search at the top, type in 'Catalan' and it brings up endless discussions (I was alerted to the matter from a 2013 notice at the Catalan-speaking countries WikiProject). The conclusion to most is that Gaudi should be identified as Catalan over Spanish. Any further discussion would be extending this to the point of warranting some official consensus-seeking vote on the matter. Kingsif (talk) 11:02, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Gaudi was Catalan, clearly no other way of putting it. Anything else is users from Spain with nationalistic tendencies that are edit-warring on English Wikipedia.128.218.42.64 (talk) 03:55, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
Agreed. Changed in the page. Eccekevin. (talk) 00:34, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
Looking over the history, it seems that while there is general agreement over the fact that Gaudi was Catalan, TheRichic, a self described-Spanish nationalist and Spanish monarchist, keeps reverting it and edit warring. It seems that he is not a neutral figure here and seems to be moved by a political agenda.Eccekevin (talk) 00:40, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
Well... Wikipedia has the page Catalans, about the Catalan people as an ethnic group. I think it can safely use Catalan. We call the ethnically Welsh people 'Welsh', not just British, we call ethnically Navajo people 'Navajo', not just American. I can't see why TheRichic can argue against Catalan. Kingsif (talk) 19:49, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
The problem here is that Catalans have created the illusion of an ethnic (pure?) group just like Navajos or indigenous Polynesians, and that is not true. Wales is a country, Catalonia is not and has never been a country or a republic, it is an autonomous community defined by the 1978 Spain's Constitution as a historic nationality. And before that, the Principality of Catalonia doesn't exist since 1715, after the War of the Spanish Succession. Not even in Catalonia is Catalan the most spoken language, it is Spanish, which is the mother tongue of thousands born in Catalonia, sons and daughters of Spaniards immigrants from communities other than Catalonia or Valencia. By yhe way, Catalan is not a pure or ethnic language, we all know it comes from Latin and Latin from Sanskrit, ultimately. Gaudí was never an independentist, he spoke Spanish, his layouts were written in Spanish. And all Catalans who think they're not Spanish pay taxes in Spain, hold a DNI, a Spanish passport and master Spanish. This is not about identity or how you feel or what you think you are, this is about nationality, which is or should be an objective issue. The UN (and nobody) does not recognize Catalonia as an independent country. I suggest the writing could be changed to something like "...was a Spanish Catalan architect" or ...a Spanish architect of Catalan origin". --Jdvillalobos (talk) 17:34, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
Some corrections on what Jdvillalobos said. First, Catalonia has been a country in the past, long before Spain existed, and it has also been a republic on different occasions, for instance: Catalan Republic (1641). Today, Catalonia is one of the historic nations that make up the state known as Kingdom of Spain. As for Antoni Gaudí, it's well known that he was a Catalanist (Catalan patriot/nationalist) and that Catalan was his mother tongue (even though using Catalan in his time was complicated, since at that time it was severely persecuted and prohibited by Spain). Let's not forget the events of September 11 1924 during Spain's Primo de Rivera dictatorship, when Gaudí attended a demonstration on the National Day of Catalonia, where Spanish police officers arrested him when he refused to speak in Spanish to them as he insisted in doing it in Catalan, costing him a time in jail. The rest of what you said are either opinions or irrelevant issues, such as the fact that Catalan comes from Latin (like all Romance languages) or that today Catalan is not the most spoken language in Catalonia as it was before the 20th century dictatorships. Nor is Welsh the most spoken language in Wales, since you mentioned Wales.--Beethoven (talk) 15:53, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
Agreed. Wikipedia seems to be a hotspot for Spanish nationalists attacking Catalan pages. Much like Welsh, Scottish, Breton, Basque and other minority communities, Catalan is a unique and distinct culture from Spanish (Castillan). It is beyond reasonable doubt that Gaudi self-identified as Catalan, and he was a major exponent of Catalan Modernism, and the vast majority of his life and almost all his works are in Catalonia and are important parts of the Catalonian heritage. Robert Burns is best described as Scottish, and Gaudi is best described as Catalan, although labels are often complicated. BUt at the end of the day, describing Gaudi as non-Catalan is a disservice to the reader. Eccekevin (talk) 03:29, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
Disagree. To understand Gaudi is necessary to understand his historical context. In his time there was an increase on Nationalistic sentiment further fuelled after WWI. National awakening was there. But not in the context of statehood. At least not as mainstream. He's statehood was spanish. That is undeniable. Because of current political events, catalan nationalism seeks to claim national identity by invoking the right to a catalan nation. This discussion is very heated indeed. And by categorizing this subject as catalan we take part in the discussion. I think WP is not the place. Regarding the partisan edits of spanish speaking editors, I'd like to remind you that there are at least, as many notorious pro independence users. And this discussion was started by the later ones. The catalan wikipedia is a prime example of POV editing, in part because it is a small community with a single point of view taking over. Fortunately, english wikipedia is healthy and these discussions will continue. Arcillaroja (talk) 10:06, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
It seems you are also a Spanish user, mostly active on Spanish and Catalonian pages. There's nothing wrong with that, but it seems you might have a personal bias or conflict of interest concerning this topic. You seem to have a conflict of interest, just like many other users who commented in the past and are from Spain and are involved in the debate pro and anti-Catalonia. Myself (I am not from Spain nor have any interest in favor or against the Catalonian movement), and many other neutral Wikipedia authors, who have no interest in local political discussions have tried to distance the page from current political events. This page is About Gaudi, not the current political climate, it has nothing to do with Catalan independence, other than when pro_spain or pro-Catalonia users try to edit it. Those who are neutral have agreed in the past that Gaudi was culturally Catalonian and identified himself as such, and give his importance in the Catalonian arts, describing him as a "Catalan architect" is a more informative description for Wikipedia readers. There's no political agenda behind it, and we are trying to preserve this page from several pro-Spain (and some pro-Catalonia_ users that are trying to make it into a political issue.Eccekevin (talk) 21:23, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
Eccekevin, I totally understand that you would discredit my opinion taking into account my background. Not long ago I would have done the same. Your position is clear. I'm not sure that Gaudi himself would have defined himself as Catalan if an english speaking person would have asked him (if he could have understand the question, I mean). Probably not. This is one of the few bio articles that gets this Catalan identity controversy. All other bio articles with a similar problem are also directly linked to Catalan pro independence. It does bother me that wikipedia is prone to such a thing. On the other hand it shows there are disagreements. I guess that is also informative. In any case, and regardless of what you or I say, this will keep being a problem as long as there are nationalistic editors. Arcillaroja (talk) 15:47, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
(outdent) Though it's not easy to find a clear consensus, discussions of this from the archives [2] [3] suggest that "Spanish Catalan" was the compromise for the intro, and was the phrasing used in the Good article version here, whereas it was agreed that "Spanish" was to be used in the infobox as nationality per general infobox guidelines on that. OhNoitsJamie Talk 13:53, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
The issue is that Spanish Catalan doesn't mean anything. The current compromise reached in the most current discussion was to use Spanish for the nationality in the infobox, and describe him simply as Catalan. Then after that, there was some edit warring by a few users with Spanish nationalism interests and a few anonymous profiles.Eccekevin (talk) 19:22, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
I still think that Wikipedia has to be neutral and objective. Since nationalities are included in WP intros, and not how a person alledgedly identifies, we have to say that Gaudi was Spanish. Otherwise, to be coherent, Picasso should then be tagged as an Andalusian or even French (he left Spain very young and never came back), Dalí as a Catalan, Camilo Cela as a Galician, Miguel Indurain as a Navarroan, Pío Baroja and Miguel de Unamuno as Basques, Rafael Nadal as a Balearic, Goya as an Aragonese, and so on, because Spain is a multicultural country. By the way, Gaudí spoke Spanish, many of his sketches and layouts are written in Spanish, and some of his works are in Spain, namely, not in Catalonia.--Jdvillalobos (talk) 01:23, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "Biography of Antoni Gaudí". Casa Batlló.:
  2. ^ "Biografia de Antoni Gaudí". www.biografiasyvidas.com. Retrieved 2019-03-09.
  3. ^ "Antoni Gaudí: Biografía y obras principales". arteac.es. Retrieved 2019-03-09.

Good Article? ...no it's not

Latest comment: 4 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

How on earth is this article "good". Most of it is unsourced! I've taken pity on it by aborting an edit were I was about to run run into the removal of 12,000 bytes worth of unsourced content. I don't like tagging, so I haven't done that either. But what I will do is give the GA nominator, which is you Elizium23, a week to find the sources for all of the unverified material. If you don't (or can't) I will list it at WP:GAR to have it removed from Wikipedia:Good articles/Art and architecture - and then remove all unverified material, per WP:CITE. CassiantoTalk 22:21, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

Uh, so you've identified unverified material in the article, but you won't tell us what it is? Not fair at all, but I welcome a GAR. Elizium23 (talk) 23:29, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
Why don't you take a look at all the paragraphs that end without a citation and get back to me? CassiantoTalk 00:50, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
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