Talk:Academy of Fine Arts, Kolkata

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was keep as is for now. I'm all in favor of using official names when possible, and the official name of the city has been Kolkata since 2001. However, independent sources offered by both sides in the debate pre-date that name change, so are no longer relevant for determining common usage. The only really relevant source for the name is the official web site of the Academy itself. When that web site is updated to reflect the Kolkata spelling, it would be appropriate to rename this article. ~Amatulić (talk) 19:31, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

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Academy of Fine Arts, Calcutta → Academy of Fine Arts, Kolkata – Since the name of city is changed from Calcutta → Kolkata, also the article begins with The Academy of Fine Arts in Kolkata (formerly Calcutta)... --Relisted Cúchullain ^t/c 20:03, 23 July 2012 (UTC)Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 10:01, 4 July 2012 (UTC) Tito Dutta ✉ 07:39, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose the official name apparently remains Academy of Fine Arts, Calcutta, as evidenced in their website. Academy of Fine Arts, Kolkata remains good as a redirect. Anyway, not that important as long as the article is there, and is retrievable under both names. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 20:50, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

There was not any redirect. I created that redirect yesterday. Official name is not applicable here since the name is:

[Name][City]→[Academy of Fine Arts][Calcutta/Kolkata]

Calcutta is not part of official name. Official name is "Academy of Fine Arts", "Calcutta" is location. (see West Bengal Gov's website).

Not sure that a gov tourism website is authoritative on a name of a school.--Education does not equal common sense. 我不在乎 00:15, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Since the name of the city has changed, the second part should be changed too! --Tito Dutta ✉ 04:06, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes. The location is just for disambiguation. Secret of success (talk) 15:17, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

• Support per nominator's reasoning. §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 08:17, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose per Dwaipayan. Also, it does not matter what the article's lead says; after all, we are the people who write the article and its lead. Lynch7 14:23, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
• Support per nominator. If the city name is part of the article title as a disambiguator, then it makes no sense for it to have a different spelling from our own article on the city.--Aervanath (talk) 14:34, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
• Support. Looking at the official website and a few other places, I agree with the nom that "Calcutta" is not actually part of the name, it's only being used as disambiguation. As such, it should be changed to "Kolkata" because that's where the article is (even if I would prefer we renamed Kolkata to Calcutta). Jenks24 (talk) 10:27, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
• Relisting comment It will be helpful to see how the sources refer to this institution.--Cúchullain ^t/c 20:03, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose – the Academy has a name; let's use it. There aren't many book sources, but those that there are use the name Calcutta. Dicklyon (talk) 20:24, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. "Kolkata" is controversial even within India and many organisations still use the old name. Until there is hard evidence that this one uses the new name then the article should stay here. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:00, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
• Support move to Academy of Fine Arts (Kolkata). From this Google Books search, it looks to me like the name of the institution is plain "Academy of Fine Arts", and that the city name is used purely to disambiguate. Since this is not a geographical feature, WP convention would be to disambiguate with parentheses. Since the city article is Kolkata, I would suggest using it here for consistency. Either way, however, the comma should be dropped. Dohn joe (talk) 16:35, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Their official web site appends "Calcutta" in three places, and says "© Academy of Fine Arts, Calcutta. Official Website." Dicklyon (talk) 16:51, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

How is that different from the US National Gallery of Art's website, which also appends "Washington" in several places, and says "© 2012 National Gallery of Art, Washington DC", when its name is clearly plain "National Gallery of Art"? Dohn joe (talk) 17:04, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

The main difference is that the Academy of Fine Arts appends Calcutta almost everywhere; it's what they call themselves when addressing the world. Dicklyon (talk) 18:15, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. Look at the picture of the building on the front page of the website, or the fine print just below the copyright notice: "Development permission issued by Col. A.K. Das, Director, Academy of Fine Arts (2001)". And other than the banner at the top of each page on the website, the text of each page uses "Academy of Fine Arts" on its own (or shortens it to "The Academy"). Finally, look at the academy's own publications. It's hard to read, but the cover of its golden jubilee book clearly reads just "The Academy of Fine Arts". Outside institutions do likewise: search Duke University's South Asian pamphlets collection. Dohn joe (talk) 18:55, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Also note that disambiguating placenames in parentheses is not normal in Commonwealth English articles. Commas are generally preferred. -- Necrothesp (talk) 21:32, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Commas certainly are preferred for placenames - both in Commonwealth articles and elsewhere. This, though, is not a placename article, but an article about an institution, which usually would take parentheses - see National Art Gallery (Bangladesh) and National Art Gallery (Malaysia) as examples. Dohn joe (talk) 21:43, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Although I do see that the other articles at Academy of Fine Arts do use the comma. Does anyone else see that as inconsistent with the WP-wide convention? Dohn joe (talk) 22:08, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm unaware of this "convention". It's a convention in North American articles, certainly, but not elsewhere. It's certainly not a convention for British articles, which almost always use the comma, and usage elsewhere seems mixed. -- Necrothesp (talk) 23:06, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

It seems pretty well laid out at WP:NCDAB, where comma-separated disambiguation is only mentioned in the context of geographic articles. The rest of it talks about choosing between natural and parenthetical disambiguation. Dohn joe (talk) 23:19, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

If it's how they name themselves, there's no need for us to think of it as disambiguation. Dicklyon (talk) 23:23, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

But since that's not how this institution names itself.... (see above post). Dohn joe (talk) 23:37, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

But it is how the institution names itself, more often then not. Dicklyon (talk) 23:45, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

What is your evidence for that? I showed that they don't use "Calcutta" in the text of their website, on the front of their building, and in their own publications. What are you seeing besides the banner/header, the photo caption (to the building labeled plain "Academy of Fine Arts"), and the copyright notice? Dohn joe (talk) 23:54, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

No, it's not "pretty well laid out" at all, since institutions aren't discussed at WP:NCDAB and no geographical disambiguators in parentheses are used as examples. This is one of these instances in which there are no guidelines and we have to resort to convention and/or common sense. Since there isn't an overriding convention, common sense would (to me) mean using a comma. Maybe not to you, but that's personal opinion and not a reason to move an article. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:32, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose, seems to be both the official and common name of the institution.--Education does not equal common sense. 我不在乎 20:16, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
• Support: The name of the institution is "Academy of fine arts" and the "calcutta" thing is just to identify its location. The name of the location has changed, the identification here should also change. The official website might use that, but that does not make it the sole indicator of common names because I doubt if people would refer to the institution with the location i.e. since the location is just for disambiguation, it must be updated with the current title of the place the institute is situated in. Adding to my rationale, a google news search on "calcutta" gives 7 results, as compared to 15 for "Kolkata". Secret of success (talk) 15:17, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 02

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved. --regentspark (comment) 01:14, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Academy of Fine Arts, Calcutta → Academy of Fine Arts, Kolkata – After the last request move I tried to contact their official website, but it bounced back. The site is not regularly updated, I think.

a. City– Just a descriptor

Since there are more "Academy of Fine Arts" in other cities like Vienna etc, Calcutta or Kolkata– this is just a descriptor. First I'll present some documents to prove that the cit's name is just a descriptor–
Y All Government documents

• Indian Government website
• West Bengal Government– department of Tourism
• American Government bulletin

b. Use of proposed name Academy of Fina Arts, Kolkata

I have found few sources which are using the name "Academy of Fine Arts, Kolkata"

• Government website National Academy of Arts, New India
• Asia Rooms
• DNA India

c. Requesting move

If it is established that the "Calcutta" thing is just to identify its location, we should change it following 1) our Wikipedia article 2) common sense! Tito Dutta ✉ 07:09, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

• Support per previous move. The word "Calcutta" is not a part of the academy's name, it is just a location. The argument that "Kolkata" is still disputed is immaterial here, because the consensus is that "Kolkata" is the common name and the city article is named as such. Hence, it should be changed. Secret of success (talk) 15:19, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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