Talk:2012 Catalan independence demonstration

Name

The name of this article should be changed to "2012 Catalan independence protest" since the "March for independence" is the name given to the set of events held in several towns and cities in Catalonia in favour of independence, with the final demonstration in Barcelona as the most prominent action. See the definition of the "Marc for independence" by Assemblea Nacional Catalana, the organizer of the demonstration (link). Mllturro (talk) 19:03, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

References

There are sections in the article without references. Those need inline citations, especially the controversies section. Mohamed CJ (talk) 05:02, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Photograph removed from article

One of the green cards handed out to attendees

I've removed this photograph and caption from the article.

The caption reads "One of the green cards handed out to attendees". However, the photograph is clearly not of a card, but of a page from some sort of magazine or pamphlet. Furthermore, the metadata on the photograph shows that it was taken on 8 September, three days before the demonstration. I don't know what the photograph shows but it isn't what the caption says it is. If it is to be restored to the article then the caption must be corrected.

When I originally raised this question (here), I evidently caused offence, for reasons that I fail to understand. However, the problem has still not been resolved, so I am risking raising it again. I hope nobody will take offence now, as none is intended.

GrahamN (talk) 01:15, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

At best this is a language issue. I have restored it with the word placard instead. That the placards were printed before the protest makes sense--you think they should have been posted after? μηδείς (talk) 01:23, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

It is certainly a language issue. But calling it a 'placard' doesn't help. A placard is a board on a stick with a slogan (often hand-made) that demonstrators carry on a march, like this. I wasn't there, but those green cards that were handed out at the rally after they had marched sound like something entirely different.

I don't understand your point about the date of printing. A photograph taken on 8 September 2012 can't be of something handed out on 11 September 2012 no matter when that thing was printed. It could be of something that it was planned to hand out, but the caption doesn't say that, and anyway that's really not credible. Who would take such a photograph three days before the event, and why?

But regardless of all that, what's in the photograph isn't a placard either - it's plainly a page from some sort of publication. I've removed the photograph again. Please don't put it back until there is consensus to do so. Thank you.

GrahamN (talk) 04:03, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Oh cut the tendentious nonsense. Others have, you say, already criticised you for this. Obviously someone involved with the protest photographed the paper. Pick a word you want for the sign/page/paper and edit the caption. Deleting the photo is not an acceptable option because you think a better word should be used. μηδείς (talk) 04:29, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

[ The following comment moved from User talk:GrahamN: ]

Don't presume to move other's comments. μηδείς (talk) 05:14, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

[ End of comment moved from User talk:GrahamN ]

I'm sorry that you, too, seem to have taken offence. Once more, I have no idea why.

GrahamN (talk) 05:06, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

(This is a link to the comment that Medeis/μηδείς objected to GrahamN moving onto this page)

Text in footnote reads: "Bring this copy to the unitary concentration on 11 in Barcelona so that whole world and the Catalan political class could see what is the will of the people of Catalonia: independence! You may use it few times during the event. Help us make a green tide of freedom and democracy." It was intended to be used in a kind of vote of a show of hands and it was indeed used during the demostration with other copies printed in fine cardboard handed out to attendees. --Vriullop (talk) 06:59, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Ah, that makes sense now. Thank you for providing the explanation. I've now clarified this in the article, and also added a photograph cropped from the one that Medeis/μηδείς posted on my Talk page, which shows a participant at the rally holding up one of the voting papers. If anybody can provide the name of one or more of the publications the voting papers were printed in prior to the rally, I think that would be useful information to add to the article. (Incidentally, I assume the participants were given at least a token opportunity to vote no, to make the exercise meaningful. So were all the papers green, or were there also red ones printed?) Thanks GrahamN (talk) 03:56, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

The latest edit is far better than deleting the image. But "voting" seems inaccurate, since there was no legal vote. I suggest, "green protest papers" instead, and will make that change if there are no protests. μηδείς (talk) 04:25, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't think 'protest paper' is quite right, because the purpose is to show support for a proposition, not to protest against something. Although Vriullop's suggestion to call them 'voting papers' isn't quite perfect either, I think it is the best that anybody has come up with so far. (Things are often called 'votes' even if they are not legally recognised. People are 'voted' off Big Brother, and there are 'votes for deletion' here on Wikipedia, for example.) GrahamN (talk) 12:30, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

It was not a vote, of course, but a demostration of showing hands with green cards in support of the questions proposed by the speaker. Comparison with a vote of hands is the best figure to understand it, but it really was a way to show support. There was no red cards and it was not a protest action. Perhaps "green support papers/cards"? --Vriullop (talk) 14:03, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi! I'm the uploader of the picture, and as you told, this is a printing that was distributed in many general magazines a week before the demonstration, and they were used to hand out during the 11s event. Particulary, the uploaded pic is made of a magazine called Time Out Barcelona, wich is weekly distributed with Diari Ara, a Catalan daily newspaper. It was printed on septemer 8, the same day the picture it was uploaded to Commons. I will copy this text both on Enwiki and Commons just for the record--Kippelboy (talk) 14:13, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Moltes gràcies, Kippelboy. That is exactly the information we needed. I have now added it to the article. GrahamN (talk) 16:11, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

What should we call the greenthings?

I have added below a list of suggestions for what we could call the greenthings, with the case for and against each, as I understand it. Please edit this as you see fit. GrahamN (talk) 15:04, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Cards

• The case for: 'Card' appears to be a literal translation of the Catalan word 'cartolina' , which how the greenthings are described in the Catalan wikipedia.

• The case against: In English, the word 'card' implies a certain degree of stiffness. Although the greenthings handed out at the rally were reportedly printed on thin card, the ones taken from magazines etc were evidently on ordinary paper, and so it is incorrect to describe them as 'cards'

Placards

• The case for: The word 'placard' is commonly used to describe things people hold up at demonstrations, as the greenthings were.

• The case against: A 'placard' is normally understood to be a board on a stick. The greenthings are not like that.

Voting papers

• The case for: It describes what they were used for and it doesn't imply that they were all printed on cardboard.

• The case against: The term has misleading connotations of 'voting slips' or 'ballot papers', suggestive of a formal secret ballot, which was not the case. Also, just as it is incorrect in English to describe something made of paper as 'a card', it is equally incorrect to describe something made of card as 'a paper'. Some of the greenthings were on paper, some were on card. Furthermore, while the English word 'cards' just means things printed on card, the word 'papers' is normally used only for official or formal documents printed on paper. ("Exam papers", "Immigration papers", "Show me your papers!")

Protest papers

• The case for: It doesn't imply that they were all printed on cardboard, and it avoids connotations of a formal secret ballot.

• The case against: The word 'protest' implies opposition to something, but the greenthings were used to express agreement, not opposition. Also, the word 'papers' is problematic, as mentioned under 'voting papers'.

Support papers/cards

• The case for: It expresses the idea that they were used to show support for a proposition, and it doesn't imply that they were all printed on cardboard or all on paper.

• The case against: The word 'papers' has connotations of officialdom, as mentioned under 'voting papers'.

Tickets

• The case for: This web page, which is cited in the footnote, calls the greenthings 'butlletes', which apparently translates literally as 'tickets'. Like the greenthings, tickets can be either card or paper.

• The case against: The word has connotations of travelling or gaining entry to somewhere, rather than expressing an opinion.

comments

According to my opinion, cards should do it. The big picture is what matters here, not a precise description of the materials used (which, by the way, and as you said, had diverse origins and different stiffness levels). Therefore, we should go for the least compromising word in terms of unwanted nuances, and cards is, for me, the noun with fewer connotations attached. Please tell me what you think. Jordissim (talk) 00:07, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Green protest cards or protest papers is fine. They are cards used at the protest. They are not "voting" cards in that they have nothing to do with any actual vote. The word protest means to declare publicly, not necessarily to disagree. To say the marchers were protesting their support for independence by waving those cards or papers is perfectly accurate English as far as the verb goes. μηδείς (talk) 00:37, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Green demonstration placards or cards or papers is also fine. μηδείς (talk) 00:49, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

I've taken the liberty of substituting "Green voting papers" for "Green cards". "Cards" is closer to the Catalan "Cartolines" , which is how we called them (I'm afraid you'll have to take my word for it, as a native and attendee). Jordissim (talk) 00:51, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

With regards to "protest", I've decided to eliminate it from the section due to a couple of reason. Firstly, even though there is a neutral acception of the word that implies no disagreement, others do (dictionary in hand, and mostly, widely perceived meaning) - better to avoid possible misunderstanding. Secondly, it is a false friend both in Spanish and in Catalan, reinforcing the probability of the noun being taken as a synonym for "public disagreement". Jordissim (talk) 01:17, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

This all seems very sensible. GrahamN (talk) 03:15, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

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