Talk:2008 Tennis Masters Cup – Singles

Murray Qualifies

Let me clarify. Simon can't pass Murray even if he wins, because if they are both 2-1, Murray is ahead due to their game result. Stepanek can't pass Murray even if he wins both his games because if they are both 2-1, Murray will be ahead due to their game result. Therefore Murray must be in the top 2, which means he has qualified. Federer still has the opportunity to be Number 1 in the group so we can't call the standings yet.

If Federer loses today, Murray will get Number 1 and will play in the 1st fixture of the Semi-finals. T. Moitie ^[talk] 12:48, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

[1] T. Moitie ^[talk] 12:54, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Murray doesn't pass Simon just due to their head-to-head result, because we have yet Federer. Federer can win against Murray, Murray beat Simon and Simon beat Federer, so the head-to-head results are even between these three. --Anaxagoras13 (talk) 12:56, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

But Murray will be ahead of Simon because of their individual result. Murray beat Simon, so if their records are even, the winner of their game takes the place.

No!!! Absolutely not!--Anaxagoras13 (talk) 13:02, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

If there are 3 players with the same record and all are 1-1 against each other (what's the case always in a 4 man group) then nobody is above one of the others because their head-to-head-result.--Anaxagoras13 (talk) 13:04, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes! T. Moitie IS right because if Federer, Murray and Simon are all 2-1 then Federer will have a different set record. If he wins both his matches in straight sets he will be through as number 1 on set ratio then it will no longer be a 3-way tie but back to a two-way tie between Murray and Simon... Murray through... There is no way whatsoever that Simon can finish above Murray so Murray is qualified.. position as yet unknown... why would the ATP official website be publishing news as Murray qualified if it was wrong? They run the thing 86.128.78.202 (talk) 13:07, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Murray can be in the SF because he beat Simon in 2 sets and Simon needed 3 sets to beat Federer, so Simon is 2-3 sets in head-to-head and Murray can only drop to 2-2 sets, if he loses in two to Federer. Note this: there is not stated, that it goes back to a two-way-tie if Federer is out of the 3-way-tie because of the set result. If relying strictly to the tie-breaking procedures on the article, games are the next criteria. But I think, the exact tie-breaker-criteria is a bit more than in the article. It's no automatism going back the tie-breaker-ladder if one player is ranked and more players stay tied, that must be stated in the rules (like in the NFL TBs).--Anaxagoras13 (talk) 13:18, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

That's all the media guide writes about tie-breakers:
1. Winner of match between the two players tied;
2. Player with the highest percentage of sets won;
3. Player with the highest percentage of games won.

It's even less than in the article. By this TBs, Murray would be not in the SF yet. Very unclear TBs, ATP should have done it clearer.--Anaxagoras13 (talk) 13:34, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree, if anyone can get their hands on the full ATP round robin critera, could they put it into the Tennis Masters Cup article? T. Moitie ^[talk] 13:40, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

From the ATP rulebook: "If (i), (ii) or (iii) produce one superior player (first place), or one inferior player (third place), and the two remaining players are tied, the tie between those two players shall be broken by head-to-head record." .. i.e. what I said and why Murray is definitely through

Yes, I found the ATP rule book by myself. (page 31) But it's number (ii) already which clears it, cause I read it that way, that (i), (ii) and (iii) are aplying to the head-to-head matches only and then it's the 2-2 and 2-3 set records I mentioned above. --Anaxagoras13 (talk) 13:59, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

In the event of a three way tie, either Federer is separated from the other two with superior overall set ratio with Simon and Murray then tied: Murray qualifies 2nd on H2H, or Simon is separated from the other two with inferior overall set ratio so is out: Federer wins group on Murray H2H. 86.128.78.202 (talk) 15:02, 12 November 2008 (UTC)