Talk:1917 Jaffa deportation

Article suffers from POV, incomplete information

There are a number of issues with this article. I would try to correct them, but (a) I am not sure even where to start, and (b) it is grading time. The Title is incorrect: this should be titled 1917 Evacuation of Palestinian cities. It is not just Jaffa, and despite the first paragraph, not about just Jews. This is shown by the evacuation of Gaza City. This Haaretz article (https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-the-1917-expulsion-of-tel-avivs-jews-seen-through-turkish-eyes-1.5477699) also shows that the cities were evacuated due to British attacks.Mcdruid (talk) 01:40, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

You are quite right. I think this article should be moved to "1917 evacuation of Gaza and Jaffa", or something like your title. Moving it isn't easy and will be opposed by some who like to have it presented as a primarily anti-Jewish event. Zero^talk 05:56, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

I agree also, subject to identifying a good scholarly source to base the corrected scope around. A similar thing happened at 1956–57 exodus and expulsions from Egypt – it was originally written from the perspective of Jewish history, and then shifted into its fuller context. Onceinawhile (talk) 08:09, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Some proper context below:

• McMeekin, Sean (2015). The Ottoman Endgame: War, Revolution and the Making of the Modern Middle East, 1908-1923. Penguin Books Limited. ISBN 978-0-7181-9972-2. After the first British assault on Gaza had been-barely-repulsed on March 28, 1917, Djemal Pasha ordered the evacuation of Jaffa, forty miles north along the coast, for security reasons. There was nothing unusual about this decision in and of itself: Gaza too had been evacuated back in February prior to the British assault on it, as indeed commanders have always done with population centers located near active military fronts to clear a line of retreat for the defending army in case a breakthrough occurs. The trouble in Jaffa began with the timing, during Passover, which inevitably raised the hackles of the city's large Jewish population, concentrated in the northern district known as Tel Aviv. Jews were not singled out in Djemal's evacuation order: most of the city's Arabs (Muslims and Christians alike) were deported too. In fact, protests from local Jewish leaders were strong enough that Djemal actually gave Jews an extra week to get their affairs in order before leaving on April 6- the same day, as it turned out, that the United States entered the First World War. In the event, some ten thousand Ottoman subjects were deported from Jaffa into inland, desert Syria in April 1917, of which about one-third were Jewish. It was not the finest hour for Djemal or the Ottomans, but in the context of deportations in the empire or elsewhere during the war, it was rather a minor affair. This is not, however, what the world would be told about Jaffa. Little noticed or reported at the time, Djemal's deportations from this small yet strategic town on the coast of Palestine were transformed, in the course of May 1917, into a cause célèbre of the world Zionist cause. The key figure in the transformation was Sir Mark Sykes…

Onceinawhile (talk) 11:49, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

The article also needs translated titles and/or links adding to the purely Hebrew citations. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:18, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Unclear

Motivation for the deportation? Why does the body say all of the Jaffa population was ordered to evacuate, while the body says only 10,000 people who were mostly Jewish? Makeandtoss (talk) 13:12, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss: The quotation from McKeekin just above explains the reason. Overall this article is in terrible shape because it is heavily burdened by Zionist atrocity propaganda and not based on reliable sources. Read Archive 1 of this talk page for relevant discussion in the past. Fixing the article was impossible when the likes of Icewhiz were blocking it. Whether it is possible to fix it now is unclear. Zero^talk 01:28, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

I am sure this can be fixed now because there is clear misinformation. From the quote above: "some ten thousand Ottoman subjects were deported from Jaffa into inland, desert Syria in April 1917, of which about one-third were Jewish." One-third out of 10,000 wouldn't make 8,000. Clearly, this has been written in a way to portray it as some sort of a anti-Jewish pogrom. Makeandtoss (talk) 07:59, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Deleting image again

Regarding the image with caption "Notice by the Ottoman Empire's Ministry of Palestine in 1915 requiring Jews to arrange Ottoman citizenship before 15 May, 1915." There was no such organization. The caption in the Hebrew wiki refers to the Palestine Office, a Zionist body that later became the Jewish Agency. However, the document itself does not say who wrote it and we aren't allowed to use wikis as sources. My interpretation is that the document is a warning (written by Jews for Jews) that people who applied for Ottoman citizenship but hadn't paid the fee yet have to do so immediately or be subject to deportation. But my interpretation is not a reliable source here either. In sum, there is no evidence that this is an Ottoman document and so we can't use it. Zero^talk 02:48, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Incidentally, here is a transcription (which may have typos) and my best effort at translation. Corrections welcome:

אזחרה אחרונה

היום הוא היום האחרון לנסר סדור תחתעמטכות, וכל מי אשר לא יסדר את הענין היום, דהינו אשר לא יבוא אל בית־הפולציה בתל־אביב לפדר את נירותיו , תחיל עליו גזרת־הגירוש.

יום המשי , כ״ט איר תרע״ה (13.5.15)

ואלה הם הקרואים

Final Warning

Today is the last day to settle matters under the regulations, and anyone who does not resolve the issue today, meaning anyone who does not come to the police station in Tel Aviv to take care of their papers, will be subject to the deportation decree.

Thursday, 29 Iyar 5675 (13.5.15)

And these are the people called:

Zero^talk 05:59, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Gaza and Jaffa

If I am understanding this correctly, only these two cities were affected by the evacuation/deportation orders. So should the scope of this article be about both; or are we better off having two separate articles? Makeandtoss (talk) 11:06, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

I think the entire southern coastal area of Palestine was evacuated, but I only know of sources about Gaza and Jaffa. Zero^talk 14:09, 28 August 2024 (UTC)