Talk:1862 Greek head of state referendum

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

(Non-admin closure)The result of the move request was: Not done.Night ^{Of Darkness} 07:07, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Greek head of state referendum, 1862 → Greek King election, 1862 – This would be a more accurate title for the article as this was an election, not a referendum. This is confirmed by Elections in Europe: A data handbook, which lists it as such. Number 57 22:08, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Oppose Ungrammatical. Richard Clogg calls it a referendum, by the way, and he's the modern expert. The source you're using says the election was held on 9th November. How do you explain then that the resolution to hold an election was passed by the National Assembly on 1st December? (see Finlay & Tozer, p. 285): "the election of their king by universal suffrage at every municipality in the kingdom and every consulate abroad, commencing on the third day after the publication of the decree at each locality where the voting was to take place. The places of voting were ordered to be kept open for ten days, and the examination of the votes was to be made by the National Assembly, which would announce the result of the elections." Clogg, Finlay and Tozer, and Driault and Lheritier (authors of Histoire diplomatique de la Grèce de 1821 à nos jours, 1926) are all agreed that the vote in Athens opened on the 6th and closed on the 16th of December. DrKay (talk) 22:31, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

The date of 9 November was a typo on my part, it should have been 19 November. However, the difference in the dates may be explained by the fact that Greece did not adopt the Gregorian calendar until the 20th century, so one source may be using adjusted dates (particularly as they are so close and the difference in the calendars was around two-three weeks). But anyway, the argument is about whether this was a referendum or an election, and you have quoted another source describing it as an election. Number 57 22:45, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

The calendars were 12 days apart so 19 November in the Julian calendar is 1 December in the Gregorian. Presumably, they've chosen the Greek date of the parliamentary vote not the Gregorian dates of the actual public vote that was held throughout December. DrKay (talk) 22:59, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Also, could you explain how one title is ungrammatical but not the other? Number 57 22:47, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Benjamin Disraeli (Letters 1860-1864), Robert William Seton-Watson (Britain in Europe, 1789-1914), Sarah Wambaugh (A monograph on plebiscites: with a collection of official documents), and Leone Levi (Annals) call it a plebiscite. As does John Iatrides (citing George Mavrogordatos's, The Plebiscitary Experience of Modern Greece, 1862-1973), Eleutherios G. Prebelakēs in British Policy Towards the Change of Dynasty in Greece, 1862-1863, Domna Visvizē-Donta and John T. A. Koumoulides in Greece in Transition, Robert F. Holland and Diana Weston Markides in The British and the Hellenes, and Encyclopedia Britannica. DrKay (talk) 22:59, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

• Was it a referendum or a plebiscite? Also, voters also had the alternative option of selecting a republican form of government. Perhaps it would be best to just title it Greek plebiscite, 1862 or Greek referendum, 1862? Rennell435 (talk) 03:24, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

On the balance of sources, and from reading the material, I prefer plebiscite. I think the meaning of that word is the closest description to the nature of the vote, which was an expression of opinion or public consultation without binding force, rather than a referendum on a specific question or a direct election. DrKay (talk) 10:33, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Prince Nicholas of Russia

Who is Prince Nicholas of Russia? Was he an actual Russian prince, ie. boyar, or really a Grand Duke? --The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 09:20, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

The source doesn't specify. DrKay (talk) 17:07, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Grand Duke Nicholas

In 1862, there were two Grand Dukes Nicholas - the Tsar's brother, born in 1831, and that grand duke's son, who was six years old. Obviously this is the father. john k (talk) 23:27, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

And Grand Duke Nicholas Konstantinovich of Russia. The source doesn't specify which or distinguish clearly between Grand Dukes Nicholas, Princes Nicholas and Tsarevich Nicholas. DrKay (talk) 17:07, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

A twelve year old. It's obviously the Tsar's brother. john k (talk) 22:00, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

I don't find it obvious at all. Several of the people listed are teenagers and Alfred, the supposed winner, and George I, the eventual king, were both younger than the Tsarevich. DrKay (talk) 22:16, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Link

Can someone tell me how to edit the Notes? I actually found the digital copy of the article where the referendum results come from — Preceding unsigned comment added by CanadianPrince (talk • contribs) 19:54, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

@CanadianPrince: If you post the link here, I will add it. Number 57 21:24, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/archive/page/1863-02-16/6.html?region=global#start%3D1863-02-15%26end%3D1863-02-16%26terms%3DNewspaper%26back%3D/tto/archive/find/Newspaper/w:1863-02-15%7E1863-02-16/1%26prev%3D/tto/archive/frame/goto/Newspaper/w:1863-02-15%7E1863-02-16/2%26next%3D/tto/archive/frame/goto/Newspaper/w:1863-02-15%7E1863-02-16/4 - This the article from which the referendum results are drawn CanadianPrince (talk) 01:15, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

@CanadianPrince: Thanks, I have added it to the article. Number 57 17:40, 19 December 2020 (UTC)