Talk:Çankaya Mansion

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To MarshallBagramyan

"In Ankara, Ohannes Kasapian and his family felt secure initially, for the deportations orders did not include Catholic Armenians. But in October 1915, orders were issued for Catholic Armenians as well. Luckier than most, the Kasapian managed to escape this fate, thanks to Ohannes' connections in the German-run Rail Company, which helped secure their passage to Istanbul, where they eventually settled."

By reverting my edit which merely consists of making the article compatible with the sources provided, you are the one who's being disruptive. --Mttll (talk) 02:50, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

None of this contradicts what was written in the text before you reverted it. Aside from unnecessarily removing mention of Kasabian's profession, you removed the fact that he and his family did not simply escape but were forced to flee and leave their belongings behind. The historian Ugur Ungor writes in the article in the Armenian Weekly (cited in the article here):

The various Ministries (Education, Health, Justice) greatly benefited from the colonization process. The Interior Ministry granted them permission to choose from Armenian property buildings it wanted to use as their offices. The state, led by the CUP, was lavished with property up to the highest levels. A famous example of confiscated Armenian property is the story of the Kasabian vineyard house in Ankara. In December 1921, amidst the Greco-Turkish War, Mustafa Kemal was touring the area when he noticed the splendid house of the wealthy Ankara jeweler and merchant Kasabian. The house had been occupied by the noted Bulgurluzâde family after the Kasabians had been dispossessed and deported. Mustafa Kemal liked the house and bought it from Bulgurluzâde Tevfik Efendi for 4,500 Turkish lira.

To make this sound anything less than a violent uprooting from one's land is nothing short of historical revisionism (the bad kind). You have no reason to delete, alter, or omit these facts.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 01:01, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

What do you mean they didn't simply escape but forced to flee?

escape: To avoid a serious or unwanted outcome: escaped from the accident with their lives.

And the reason for the other parts I changed is because most of the complex was built later on. --Mttll (talk) 10:49, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

The nuances of the English language may not be apparent to a non-native speaker, but the reader must understand that this property wasn't just "abandoned" as the Turkish law is worded, but taken away from their rightful owners. I did not see any attempt by you to distinguish the property as it existed at the time and any new buildings that have been added or built around it since. As Ungor writes above, the mansion belonging to Kasabian was expropriated at first by Bulgurluzâde and then Ataturk. --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 20:50, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't see how my edits imply the property was abandoned for no reason. If anything, the earlier version can be misleading, as it said Kasabians were deported, which can be interpreted as if they were taken away in custody and that wasn't the case. And there is no need to distinguish new buildings in that section. If you actually read the article, you will see what's now referred to as "Çankaya Köşkü" was built in 1930-32. --Mttll (talk) 18:06, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

The current text reads " In the early days of June 1921, Atatürk settled in the vineyard lodge, which, after some minor repairs, came to be known as the "Çankaya Villa". So it is not just the 1930-32 building that was called "Çankaya Köşkü". Meowy 20:00, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Well, that sentence is unreferenced. But even if it's true about the first use of term, "Çankaya Villa", it doesn't change the fact that it now refers to the official residence of the President of Turkey (if not to the whole complex), which was brand new built in 1930-32 and distinct from the old vineyard house of Kasabians which has been used as a museum since 1950. --Mttll (talk) 23:20, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

A better translation of "Köşkü" would be "villa" or "pavillion", not mansion. Meowy 19:45, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Where do you infer the notion that they were not taken away in custody? I do not want to enter into semantics, but if the model of the genocide as it is understood is to be followed for Ankara, then we can safely assume that the Kasabians left the city under duress (putting it mildly) and under the same conditions as everywhere else: under armed guard or government supervision. Putting it in any lesser terms otherwise portrays an inaccurate picture of what transpired.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 22:19, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

I infer it from here:

Luckier than most, the Kasapian managed to escape this fate, thanks to Ohannes' connections in the German-run Rail Company, which helped secure their passage to Istanbul, where they eventually settled.

Also from the fact that (to my knowledge) Armenians weren't deported to Istanbul. --Mttll (talk) 23:20, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Mttll, your edits look OR - you have presented no evidence that the residence of Ataturk was not known as the "Çankaya Villa" prior to the 1932 new building - common sense says it was, and, anyway, this article is about the history of the whole compound. Worse, your edit aim appears weasely - as if intended to hide the fact that Artaturk took over an actual house (and not simply the empty grounds of a vineyard) that had been stolen from its original Armenian owner. About the deportation wording, given that "deportation" in the context of the Armenia Genocide is just another word for "death", why not just say that the Kasabians escaped death during the Armenian Genocide by escaping to Istanbul. Meowy 21:15, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

The validity of my edits doesn't depend on the date "Çankaya Villa" was first uttered. The opening sentence of the article:

Çankaya Köşkü (English: Çankaya Villa) is the official residence of the President of Turkey.

What building is this residence? The Pink Villa. Did it exist prior to 1930-32? No. And I would suggest spending less time psychoanalyzing my edits and more time logically deconstructing them. --Mttll (talk) 21:39, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Please remain true hearted to the resources (Kansas Bear )

According to the source, you can clearly understand the following items;

1. Former owner of the land and the first building was Armenian. 2. Former owner(s) left the place because of the deportations in the Great War. 3. Neither of the resources state the reason as "genocide". The term "genocide" doesnt exist in any part of the two resources. 4. In the literature "Deportation" and "Genocide" are very diffenet terms, and the author clearly chooses the former.

Wikipedia articles should be true to the resources. I'm not saying that you manupulate the resource, but maybe you don't know that the two terms have an important difference. ĶŞĶ-ŴĀŘ (talk) 21:48, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Pray tell, what exactly do you think the deportations meant for most Armenians in 1915? Can you demonstrate that Kasabian decided to abandon his palace voluntarily? I don't feel like giving anyone a history lesson but the deportations have been recognized by scholars as a method of destroying the Armenian people, which in turn has been described as genocide. No one can accept any of the above "explanations" with a straight face.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 22:51, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

War is a tragedy. Great war is a great tragedy. Its a fact that, of course the deportations were a big tragedy. But this does not mean the deportations were a "genocide". There is a large debate on this issue. Many scholars point the issue as a genocide, but as many scholars (if not more) do not class the events as a genocide. If we cite a resource which states that the reason of why the former owners left is "genocide" then it's okay to cite that phrase. But if our resource states the reason as "deportations", we should stick to that. We shouldn't discuss about what was the deportations here. The resource states "deportations", so we can only cite that as deportations. PLEASE DO NOT ABUSE THE ARTICLE BY DISTORTING THE RESOURCES. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KSK-War (talk • contribs) 19:02, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Anladım arkadaşım. But most historians and scholars would beg to differ. You're try to pick apart the sentence on the basis of a technicality: just because the source uses the word deportation does not mean the expulsion and confiscation were not part of an overall plan to destroy the Armenians. This makes it subject for immediate reversion because I, and others would agree, it is not being done out of true, good-faith. I am not going to revert it immediately since this might beget a new edit war, which is something I hardly like, and will leave it for another editor to do, but please know that such a narrow editing attitude will not be accepted as legitimate points to change the article in the way you have now worded it.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 20:23, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

It's interesting that you tried to read first the author's and now my inner thoughts. If we're to talk about "true good faith", that could be possible by sticking to objective/positive facts, like the original text of the resource. Now you accuse me with not being/acting of true, good-faith. Well, I think that shows the community a bit of you. I don't want to start a childish game of accusations. I think you are not neutral to this issue, and you don't have a neutral pov on this issue. But wikipedia shall be neutral. You might object my contribution to the article, but I think a neutral pov is a desirable thing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KSK-War (talk • contribs) 21:12, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

I've been editing here for almost seven years now. You can take a look at my main page and my contributions to see the effort and dedication I have put into writing articles and that such talk of me not being neutral is speaks of a lack of ability to debate things rationally. Good luck in the rest of your endeavors but please refrain from obstructing and damaging the integrity of this article and others. --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 21:29, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

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Potential politically motivated, unverified information

This is regarding my previous edits that are geing rolled back.

I've checked the provided sources and I could not find anything that makes the lot being vacated by the Kasabian family related to any genocide. I left the parts that can be proven intact.

I believe that the previous ownership(s) do not belong in the title section. The place for that should be the history section.

I would like to add that I assume some or most people who engage in this "revert war" to be people of Armenian heritage, based on their edit history and talk page, with whom I've unfortunately had a lot of experiences where finding out that one is Turkish, will stop anything they're doing and say that one is a genocidal maniac and make racist remarks. I believe this to be the case for the political motivation, and why the part about previous ownership was carried to the title section. 176.233.25.95 (talk) 08:41, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

• "I would like to add that I assume some or most people who engage in this "revert war" to be people of Armenian heritage.."

LMAO! --Kansas Bear (talk) 12:54, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Your reply is unconstructive and unfortunately I will have to keep repeating my edits 176.233.25.95 (talk) 13:45, 13 May 2024 (UTC)