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Questioning imporatnce of Super Smash Bros.-related articles

Note: The following discussion was transferred from Talk:Super Smash Bros. Brawl

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High importance: Mario, LoZ, Pokemon, Metroid. The AAA franchises.

Smash is nowhere near an AAA franchise with only 6 million copies sold. It's just a party game. Wikipedian06 08:34, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I'll just point out that 2 characters AT LEAST show up in smash from each of those franchises.DurinsBane87 08:39, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Considering the game's popularity as a series, I would say it is important. -Sukecchi 12:59, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Smash Bros. is only a party game in the sense that it's a good game to play at parties. It's not in the party game genera like Mario Party or Pac-Man Fever. It's a fighting game, like Soul Caliber and Street Fighter. Joiz ^A. Shmo 13:46, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Leave it up to the project members to decide how they rate this game, or take it up with them. I have no idea why you make such an issue of this.--Atlan (talk) 18:57, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

You've obviously never seen any pro videos. Smash is the 2nd or 3rd largest tournament console games circuit [Melee, that is]. Seriosuly, saying it's just a praty game is retarted. You don't know the circuit, genius. Seriously, only Halo, and maybe Street Fighter are played more competitively [console games, that is]. Hint: Ken [the Melee world champion] has won around $70,000 or so on the pro circuit. It's a competitve game, not just a party game. Do your research dude=the smash world forums. So stop calling it just a party game. It is a party game, but it's also a heavily played tournament and competitve game. Seriously, there are tournaments every week, there are dozens upon dozens of bi and tri weeklies every week, and Super Smash Bros. 64 is one of the most played games on Kaillera. Know the community, before judging or saying anything. Melee has been a tournament played game since 2003, and continues to this day, and will beyond Brawl, just like Super Smash Bros. 64 before it. As for the sales, Super Smash Bros. Melee sold 7 million units. Halo 2 sold 9 million. It was the Gamecube's best selling game. That's AAA genius. It outsold Halo 1 by about 3 million units. Seriously. Stop hating on the series, and be logical. Brawl more then not will be the Wii's best selling game, and the Wii at the moment has sold more system units then the PS3 and the 360. You do the math, and you can stop being a biased fool.--faceurhell 5:20, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Please do not bite the newcomers. We point him in the right direction and let him go. Let's not start throwing insults around. Joiz ^A. Shmo 03:57, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

ROFL, who cares about the "tourneyfags." (a term borrowed from 4chan [1]) They represent a very small portion of the fanbase, and yet are the most vocal. Quite frankly, I couldn't care less about the competitive players and IMHO, they need to get lives and find something better to do with their time than play Smash 24/7.

Character representation doesn't matter. Nintendo's characters are only in Smash because the game would be a generic fighter that no one would give a damn about otherwise. We all associate Mario with great platforming action and Metroid with exploration. None of this genre-defining gameplay is present in Smash. With this argument, you might as well say that Mario Golf is a high-importance game simply because almost all Mario characters are represented. However, the signature gameplay that makes a Mario game Mario (i.e. the platforming) is nowhere to be found.

The Wii's best selling game is Wii Sports at almost 10 million copies, IIRC. I highly doubt this game will come anything close to that, especially considering that sales of Wii Sports will continue to increase as more and more casual gamers enter the market. The best selling "real" game (not a minigame collection) will most likely be Super Mario Galaxy, the next installment in Nintendo's flagship franchise, a Miyamoto-designed successor to Super Mario 64. (Mario Sunshine didn't have Miyamoto on the team, and that's why it flopped.) It's already outselling Smash on Amazon.com by a large margin (#36 vs. #52 as of yesterday night). [2]

Yeah, I don't see any reason this is high importance material. Having a bunch of vocal competitive players trying to promote the game and their competition in everyone's faces doesn't make this franchise any more notable. Wikipedian06 08:11, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

The reason that Wii Sports sold so much was because it came Packaged with the Wii in every country but Japan. Trust me: more people are going to buy a Wii than any particular game on the Wii. The name "Tourneyfags" is a derogatory term towards both tournament participants and homosexuals, by the way, and your denouncement of these tournament participants in the following sentences does not help your case. This is regarded as a personal attack regardless of whether your comment reached your intended targets.

Aside from that, your personal vendetta against these games is clouding your arguments. Having a bunch of "vocal competitive players" is indeed noteworthy when cash prizes as large as 12,500 USD are given away in tornaments with participants from more than one state, let alone 30 states and two other countries. Seriously, calm down and think your arguments through before busting in with personal attacks. You Can't Review Me!!! 18:56, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Smash is nowhere near an AAA franchise with only 6 million copies sold. It's just a party game. Wikipedian06 08:34, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Consider the fact that Super Smash Bros. has only two released games to its franchise, and that 6 million becomes a pretty good figure. You Can't Review Me!!! 03:43, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, this page pegs Smash's sales as 10.89 million, not 6 million. Metroid's not THAT much higher, at 13 million (note that I do not think Prime 3 factors into that number.) Donkey Kong is by far a bigger seller than Metroid, as well, with over three times Metroid's sales according to the same page. --HeroicJay 04:17, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedien o6 you can prove a point you but when you name call your just be childish and what's the big deal if it of high importance I mean right now its one of the games that has new information for it every day and by calling it party game defeats the purpose of you writing because so what if it is a so-called party game it still is extremely successful and if you don't call Wii Sports a party game well there is something wrong with you.Marioman12 14:42, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

First off, Mario Galaxy's release time has been known longer than SSBB's, i believe. Secondly, you're trying to make the point that in order to be a "AAA" franchise, the game needs to beat Nintendo's main franchise? That's pretty faulty logic. Considering the massive undertaking that nintendo is using involving this game, and the excitment generated anytime new info is released about it in the gaming media, you have no legs to stand on. Last I checked, I believe Nintendo Power had a section with new info on brawl or talking about brawl in every edition. The only person I've encountered who seems to think otherwise is you. DurinsBane87 15:37, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

What the heck is AAA?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.186.101.182 (talk) 18:43, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't know either, but I think this whole thing is getting blown out of proportion. Would everyone settle down and start talking about the article rather than throwing around insults?

Anyways, Wikipedian 06, it seems to me that your two main arguments are sales figures and being a "party game". As far as sales are concerned, why not wait until after the game is released. Also, just how do you define a "party game"? Sure, the Super Smash Bros. series is best known for it's multiplayer, but SSBB focuses just as much on one-player as multiplayer.

That being said, perhaps you should double check what Atlan said earlier: "Leave it up to the project members to decide how they rate this game, or take it up with them. I have no idea why you make such an issue of this." I couldn't have said it better myself.

Oh, and what does AAA mean, anyways? The world's hungriest paperweight 19:29, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

By "AAA" he's probably refferencing to high selling series, as in Mario and Zelda. Atomic Religione 20:24, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

SHUT UP!!! This isn't a forum or your little 4chan crap, "noob(s)" :). Thank you. *kaburicho 03:30, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Kaburicho, assume good faith next time. No one forced you to post here. There's no reason to be rude to people, period. RobJ1981 05:42, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

"High importance" is defined by the WikiProject. It's not whether or not we think it's going to sell 10 million or more copies or if it has so-and-so character in it. Whether or not it's a "party game", "fighting game", or whatever, doesn't matter and we don't need to be discussing it here. Please cease the personal attacks and only discuss how to improve THIS article. This is not a fanboy forum. Thanks. Useight 05:50, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

C'mon, trashing the tourney scene...wtf? Seriously, only Halo's tournament scene is bigger, and Melee's sales dominated Halo 1's. The series's sales are well over 10 million, which makes it the best selling series with only two released entries. Donkey Kong sold well, becuase on the SNES Donkey Kong Country came packaged with the SNES, just like Wii Sports and the Wii. And enough of these 4chan quotes, that is falt out unintelligent. Halo is considered AAA, and Smash 64's and Melee's combined sales come pretty close to the Xbox version of Halo 1 and 2 combined are (behind by anywher from 2 to 3 million units at most). Brawl will make the series sell better then Metroid's, and the subject maker will have just contridicted himself. Again, Melee is the 2nd most played console tournament-played game, behind only Halo 2, and helped give re-birth to the console tournament scene, along with Halo (they both remade the console game tourney sccene together, and made it for the masses).

And to the person who called them tourney-tards, just stop. You don't know anyone who plays msahs competitvely, so what gives you the right to judge=??? You don't have the right to judge people you don't know, PERIOD. Besides, many (if not most) of the professional players are college students as many diffrent colleges. Smash is virtually the Street Fighter of this era, and Melee is barely outsold by Street Fighter 2 as the best selling fighting game of all-time. Brawl will probably outsell both, considering the Wii's sales. The original post maker clearly doesn't know the stats, and clearly doesn't know the smash comunnity AT ALL. Donkey Kong got nearly half it's sales from the original DOnkey Kong Country, which sold around 15-20 million units, and was packaged with the SNES, the best seling game console of the 4th generation of video gaming.

Mario got 40 million of it's over 190 million sales from Super Mario Bros., which was bundelded with the NES [which was the best selling system of the 3rd generation of gaming], Super Mario Bros 3's near 20 million units sold, and Super Mario World's 20 million unit sales, which is the best on the SNES. The 4th and 5th geneartion of gaming is where Donkey Kong and Mario got most of their sales. Again, Brawl will make the Super Smash Bros. series outsell Metroid [contradicting the original statement], and Brawl will make the series the second best sellling series of all-time with only 3 entries, behind only Halo. If that's not AAA, and Brawl being most likely the best selling game of the fighting genre, I don't know what is. It's a 2D party AND a 2D Fighting game. --faceurhell 7:05, 29 September 2007 (PCT)

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The discussion was moved to this talk page because it is more relevant to WP:NES' workings than to Super Smash Bros. Brawl's article. Any thoughts on the matter? You Can't Review Me!!! 07:36, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Category Tree

I think we should put a Category Tree on the main project page for easier navigation. Maybe something like this:

Category Nintendo articles by type not found

<categorytree mode="all" depth="2" hideroot="on" style="border-top:2px solid #CF5440; border-bottom:2px solid #CF5440; border-left:2px solid #CF5440; border-right:2px solid #CF5440; width: 500px; height:200px; overflow:auto; padding:4px; align:left">Nintendo articles by type</categorytree>
The border matches the color used in Template:NES. The width is set so that all pages fit on one text line even with all the categories expanded. I was not able to get the depth setting to work and would also like to remove the namespace names to make it look neater. I do not know how to do this but asked here (at the bottom).
–bse3 (talk • contribs • count • logs) 02:19, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

VG Sources Guideline Proposal

At Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Sources, there is a proposed guideline on sources in articles in the scope of WP:VG. As a lot of the Nintendo articles are in this scope, it may be relevant to the project. Your edits and comments are appreciated. User:Krator (t c) 15:21, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars

Currently, Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars has two lists pertaining to it (List of characters in Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars, and List of locations in Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars). User:TTN decided it would be best to merge the lists into the main article and split Smithy Gang into those articles. I recently merged Smithy Gang into the list of chatacters by removing the non-notable characters, and I have asserted that a cameo section in the list of characters is valid, per Wikipedia:Trivia sections and Wikipedia:Handling trivia that uses Alex Trebek#Cameos as a good example. I have suggested that we rename the articles per Wikipedia:Requested moves#Requesting potentially controversial moves to something along the lines of Characters of Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars and World of Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars or Mushroom Kingdom (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars) just like Characters of Final Fantasy VIII and World of Final Fantasy VI or Gaia (Final Fantasy VII). I believe if these articles are to evolve beyond a non-notable list, they should be renamed. For example, List of Final Fantasy VII locations was merged into Gaia (Final Fantasy VII), because a World article is notable, but a simple list of locations is not. That is why there are other secions of the article to make it a World article. It simply has not been renamed yet.

TTN believes the citations in the development and reception sections of the list of locations, books and magazines, are trivial sources. When I added that the 3D perspective of the game is reminicent of Equinox to the main article, TTN removed it since my souce was "the opinions of the Nintendo Power player's guide writers". Although it was actually Nintendo Power magazine, I do believe a magazine is a reliable source, and I gave a page from Next Generation Magazine which also said the same thing. In addition, I was surprized that TTN said that it was from the players guide, since he claims to own the players guide for the game. He has not verified this, since I asked him for citations in May, "Could you look in the back of the Player's Guide and tell me what “types” of … Magic? I forgot what they call it in the game … well, anyways, what types of Special Attack or whatever it is (actually, could you find out what it's called?) there are? I remember some vaguely when I owned the guide like “Fire”, “Jump”, “Electricity?”, etc. Could you provide a citation, like the page number with a quote in context?" TTN replied that he was going to "get to it" (User talk:TTN/Archive 5#List of locations in Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars). TTN claims the player's guide is "at the bottom of a box that's behind at least five others in a cramped space". Seeing that TTN did not recognize that the page was not from the player's guide when I provided a scan of the page in question from Nintendo Power shocked me. However, I have continued to assume good faith by not questioning TTN's honesty.

Per Wikipedia:Consensus#Consensus can change, I have offered five different reasonable, temporary compromises that might integrate my idea with TTN's.

1. Go over the list of characters so we can delete non–notable characters
2. Rename the articles by following the steps at Wikipedia:Requested moves#Requesting potentially controversial moves.
3. Cut down the geography section list of locations by cutting it into the regional maps the adventures use when traveling from one to another. I can get pictures and write the fair use rationals, and someone can cut down the text that has no citation and does not allude to other media.
4. Write the concept and creation and reception sections for the list of characters
5. Write the concept and creation section for the main article

TTN rejected my compromise because it still keeps the articles. I agreed I would consider a redirect, but Wikipedia:Article size does not allow that, since the list of locations is currently 82 KB long. Instead, I agreed to help cut down the geography section that is the bulk of the article, but TTN rejected that as well because TTN states, "I am not interested in working on the article in regards to improving it." and "get past this "having sources automatically means that this information is good" mentality." TTN states, "I don't think they have or will ever assert notability." I have replied with, "Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, so if you don't think the articles will ever assert notability, we cannot yet know this, per Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions#I don't like it.

Would you please take a look at Talk:Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars and give us your thoughts? Taric25 00:32, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Metroid?

Mabye someone should create a WikiProject for the Metroid series. I would join it since I have played just about every game in the Metroid universe. Thor231 19:45, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Try a task force instead, it may be a pretty small wikiproject. -- ReyBrujo 01:31, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Paper Mario Characters

a while ago I created a page that listed the characters of the paper mario series. It became a huge article, with tons of people contributing, and then once perfected, or close enough to it, people starttyed editing less. I did the same, as it had been under fire before, and was saved, but then User:TTN placed a merge suggestion, but was discourteous enough to not inform anyone, so when I only checked my talk page for messages, I was unaware of this tag. I came back to look at it, and didn't see the article, and found out it was merged, with none of the original content on the merged article. Can someone help me gather enough support to bring back this article? C. Pineda (クリス) 01:47, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Hmm...sounds like an interesting problem. First, can you provide some links to look at so that we better know what we are dealing with? Thanks. -Zomic13 03:57, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

What link should I provide? List of Paper Mario series characters This is the article...but it's only a redirect now because of the unauthorized merge (unauthorized by my standards). C. Pineda (クリス) 03:59, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I checked out that page. I am shocked that it was simply erased and replaced with a redirect to a list of just four characters. While it is missing a few characters, it is an extensive list with descriptions of each character. What was the argument for deleting it? At this point I would wholly support bringing it back. -Zomic13 04:50, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

TTN said that "There is no need for a general character list because we have three game articles that cover the single game characters, and this one can easily handle a few paragraphs describing the recurring characters and the general trends (various party members, explorer stereotype, ect)." That's it, and his reason for merging it without discussion was because that discussion topic wasn't talked about for a week, but of course no one knew about it because he didn't leave a friendly note on anyone's talk age (me especially as I'm the original author) and I'm sure because of the almost completeness of the article, people didn't quite see it. I know, since I don't have the time all day to check one single article. C. Pineda (クリス) 16:56, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I need help here. No effort is getting done with this, and I'm too busy during the week to keep fighting. Can someone, preferably and admin, help me out here? Or else this valuable article, filled with rich Nintendo Knowledge will be put out forever. C. Pineda (クリス) 04:30, 22 October 2007 (UTC) Nevermind, I took matters into my own hands. The discussion is being put to rest, because of more support on one side. thanks to those who tried to help. C. Pineda (クリス) 00:20, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Ducktales Question

I've done a little work on this article and had a quick question. According to the tag on the discussion page of the article it lists this as being a "start class" article in this project. I think this article is a little better than start class at this point. How do articles get reassessed in the project. I'm thinking it's at least a B class article at this point. Elhector 22:33, 19 October 2007 (UTC)‎

Actually, I wouldn't grade that as B-Class. The sectioning needs to be completely redone. There should be a Development section and a Critical reception section. Condense relevant material into a Gamplay section and remove game guide content. The article needs much more references, and has weasel words ("seems to be one of the more notable video game compositions...") with no citation to back them up. Pagrashtak 15:00, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, would you be able to provide me an example of article on an NES game that meets the standards that you listed above? I'd like to take a look at one and see exactly what you mean by the different aritcle sections and stuff. I'd then like to use it as a guide to rebuild the DuckTales article. I had a lot of fun playing DuckTales as a kid and I think it's a NES classic so I'd like to work on bringing the article up to par. Thanks! Elhector 18:28, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

You should be able to look at just about any of our VG featured articles to get a good idea of typical structure. I played DuckTales when I was young, too—good luck with the article. Pagrashtak 18:34, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I just put a new version of the article up. I made some rewrites and some structural changes. Would you mind taking a look at it and telling me what you think? I am going to continue working on the article in the mean time. Need to work on references and such. Also, if anyone else reading this could take a look at the article and let me know what they think that would be very helpful :-) Elhector 21:29, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

It may just be me, but I've never known references to be a necessity for B-class; just make sure any really controversial or non-obvious claims are verified. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 16:17, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Two things:

First, I have a question about the Wikiproject page. Is the following item really neccessary?

• It is best to make a personal copy of an article, just in case you get into some sort of edit war or a revert war. However, be sure to stay cool.

Couldn't you just look at the article's history? Or is this in case the article gets deleted or something?

Second, I'm new to the Nintendo Wikiproject (and also Wikipedia). I've improved the article Nitrobike a bit, and I was wondering if it would be okay to remove the stub tags. Also, feel free to give some suggestions about the article if you'd like.

Filovirus 05:56, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

For the first thing, it isn't necessary - the history contains any copy you would ever need. For the second thing, I would say that the article is almost there, but it still needs a little more before the it would be a Start class article. If you add another section and maybe a screenshot, then it could probably be bumped up. -Zomic13 06:27, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you! I saw the changes you made to the article, it looks better having the screenshot and the references properly displayed. Also, thanks for seperating the online multiplayer stuff. I think I'll try to figure out what another section of the article could be about now... Filovirus 08:11, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

The article looks pretty good right now, I think it contains enough information to warrant removing the stub tag. If not, it's really close. One more section might still be a good idea. Useight 04:22, 25 October 2007 (UTC)