Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Kerala/Archive 1

This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

On the Syrian Christians (Nasrani Mappilas) and their origins --Veliath

Latest comment: 17 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Hello all. I would like to weigh in with my take on the origin of the Syrian Christians aka Nasrani Mappilas. Some of it is theoretical, some of it is based on folklore, some on known trends in Kerala&India. Some of the theory is mine, some of it is others. I will try to separate out each of these as I present my take on the history of the Syrian Christians(SyrChrs).

Perhaps the most important point to keep in mind is that it is well known and documented that the Syrian Christians are not homogeneous - not culturally, not genetically nor in terms of social status.

Culturally the SyrChrs have practises that differ across localities as well as across families. Some SyrChrs families are considered "high" born while others are not considered so.

It is well known that SyrChrs practised polygyny (and in some cases polyandry) where the subsequent wives would be from socially lower (usually Hindu)communities. Further, many families and whole communities claim descent from Jewish settlers. Others claim Brahmin descent.

The differences in claimed descent meant that SyrChr communities were accorded different social statuses in different regions. In many areas they were perpetually in conflict with Nairs for patronage and the granting of privileges from the local kings or chieftains.

I hope to address these issues in my version of the SyrChr Origin_story:-)

West Asian Identity

A key element that separates out the Mappila communities from the others in India and Kerala is the obvious West Asian influence. It is generally believed that this points to a West Asian origin for the communities. It is documented that around the beginning of the Christian era Muziris on Kerala's coast was the largest trading port on India's Western coast known for its West Asian settlements.

Trade in Early India, Oxford University Press says the following on page 66: "Thanks to a graphic description left behind by Pliny, historians are able to trace the development of the sea-route to the west coast of India in four-stages. The most developed route, which was also the shortest and safest,began from the Red Sea port of Myos Hormos and /or Berenice and reached the famous Malabar port of Muziris (Muciri of the Tamil Sangam texts) in forty days by following the Hippalus (i.e. the south-western monsoon) wind. Pliny states that the earliest point of maritime contacts between India and the West was Patalene in the Indus delta; the subsequent point was the port of Barbaricum on the middle mouth of the Indus. The third stage made Sigerius or Jaigarh on the Konkan coast the convenient harbour and finally, Muziris became the most important port of call." Essentially by the time Pliny wrote things down Muziris was well established as a major port of call for Roman shipping. Note that the term Roman refers in general to the peoples ruled by the Romans - which included portions of Arabia and regions around the Mediterranean - i.e. present day Palestine/Israel, Armenia and Africa.

The Indian Christians of St Thomas, Leslie Brown adds the following on page 60:"At first(from about 90 B.C.) ships went from Aden and other Arabian ports direct to Bombay and finally discovered how to sail direct, diagonally across to Muziris, the port of Malabar, instead of tacking laboriously down the coast. Malabar was in any case the end of the voyage. for it was from there that pepper, spices and precious stones were exported." He goes on to say on page 61 "We know something about the extent of this trade from references in Latin writers and from coins discovered in south India. Arikamedu was an established Roman trading station and the Peutinger Tables show a temple of Augustus near Muziris, and it is said that two Roman cohorts were stationed there to guard the warehouses. Pliny speaks with some dismay of a trade which cost the empire about one and a half million sesterces a year, chiefly for luxuries like pepper, ginger and precious stones, with no reciprocal export trade to compensate". On page 62 he says "Some Tamil classics(Silapadhigaaram, Manimekalai) also speak of this trade. One poem speaks of Muziris, where `agitating the white foam of the Periyar river, the beautifully built ships of the Yavanas(Westerners) came with gold and returned with pepper, and Muziris resounded with the noise'; and in another poem we read of the Pandya king drinking `the cool and fragrant wine brought by the Yavanas in their good ships'. We also read that some Indian rajas employed bodyguards of Western soldiers --`the valiant-eyed Yavanas whose bodies were strong and of terrible aspect'; who were `excellent guardians of the gates of the fort walls'."

Now nothing is mentioned of the ethnic makeup of these West Asians, but to me it seems to be primarily Semitic (Arabs and Jews), Persian, Aremenian, Abyssinan, Egyptian and of course the Graeco-Roman elites themselves. It should also be noted that Muziris was famous before a direct sea-route to it was found.

These settlers would have been entire families/communities or simply male traders who setup factories on Kerala's shores. Many would have taken Indian wives. Over generations they would have formed a distinct community. It has been suggested that this could be the reason for the term Mappila(groom) being used to refer to them - a community formed by foreign grooms setting up families on Kerala's shores.

As has been documented by Robin Klein, many Jewish refugee communities found their way down to Kerala, typically travelling down the trading routes and settling in the relatively cosmopolitan trading locations on the Malabar Coast. J.N.Farquhar in "The Apostle Thomas in North India" (available in The Nazranies, edited by Prof. George Menachery) theorizes that the Jews were dispersed all the way from Syria to Parthia, many were engaged in trade and that for the Apostle Thomas "his kinsmen the Jews would be the chief objective". Essentially, he believes that any visit by the Apostle to Malabar would have been to proselytize amongst the thriving Jewish community "dispersed" as he puts it from Syria to Parthia with their communities extending all the way down to the Malabar coast. The Apostle's visit though very plausible will remain categorized as folklore.

As Christianity began to catch on in West Asia (both Arabia and Persia) and later the Roman Empire, the religious make up of the Yavanas to Kerala's shores began to become more Christian. Their persecution in the early centures probably only added to their increased settlement on Kerala's shores. These Christian communities would eventually be called Nasrani Mappilas.

Another major development in West Asian Christianity mirrored in Kerala is the (East)Roman vs Parthian empire hostility that resulted in the East and West Syrian Churchs. Today this is represented by the Syro-Malankara and Jacobite&Orthodox denominations following a West Syriac liturgy (centered around present day Syria & Lebanon) while the Syro-Malabar, Chaldean and Church of the East following an East Syriac derived liturgy (centered around present day Iraq & Iran). It is very likely that both Churches had communities in Kerala in obedience to them within years of the split.

With the advent of Islam the demographic of the Mappilas would have started changing again. There might have been a brief increase in settlements from those escaping persecution, following which the number of Muslims amongst the West Asians would have increased - especially amongst the Arabs.

As documented by Leslie Brown(page 81) the Muslim settlers would eventually push the Christian ones into the hinterland. Contact with West Asians would now be primarily Muslim, but Christian and Jewish traders would continue to visit Kerala's shores.

Unions with Indian communities and social integration

With the decrease in overseas Christian contacts, the Nasrani Mappila communities would have become more Indianized.

The Mappilas were patronized for the money they brought in to the coffers of the various kings and chieftains under whose suzerainty they traded. As their numbers increased they would have provided soldiers and weapons to their chieftains which in turn would have been rewarded with grants of land and social privileges. Some communites like the Knanaya community were granted land on immigration. This coupled with the loss of control of the trading ports to the Muslims would have resulted in the Nasranis becoming a landed community growing the spices and timber they historically traded.

Leslie Brown notes(pages 169-171) that in a lot of areas SyrChrs and Nairs were considered equals and were constantly in competition for royal patronage and privilege. The SyrChrs took wives and very likely accepted grooms after the Marumakkathayam fashion from amongst the Nairs.

Excerpts from The Indian Christians of St Thomas, Leslie Brown page 169:"They were given charge of the collection of revenue for the rajas in certain places and in the fourteenth century Marignolli found that they were in charge of the public weighing office in the Quilon customs. Associated with concessions in the pepper and other trades was the grant of service from certain castes and the responsibility of protecting them." On page 171 he writes: "The Christians shared many other things besides names with the Nayars. They occasionally took wives from that community, and their children often went to school with Nayar children...Many families still have certain privileges in the temples which are believed to have been granted in recognition of some service given or some present made in former times. For example at the Arat festival in Parappatattu temple the oldest member of the Pulikkamarrattil family of Syrians (who bore the title of Panikkar or Menon)had the right to go before the image of the deity and received rice and other presents". On page 170 he says: "The other privileges granted by the rajas were of use in establishing the position of the Christians in society and as such were most jealously guarded. In the sixteenth century the raja of Paravur tried to give similar privileges to the Nayaras of his State but the Christians rose in armed revolt and forced him to change his mind"

It is likely that in places where Nairs and Christians were on par socially, or the latter higher (as in Paravur above), it is my belief that the increasing social clout of the SyrChrs would have resulted in some of these families being able to participate in the practise of Marumakkathayam with scions of Namboothiri families. The children born to these marriages would claim Namboothiri descent on the male side (the SyrChrs were patrilineal) and the families of today that claim Brahmin blood very likely are descended from these unions. The tale of Namboothiri conversions by the Apostle Thomas could be an attempt at hoariness by these families in my opinion.

Various sources including Leslie Brown and such documents as the Synod of Diamper mention the practise of cohabition with Indian slave women - i.e. women from the oppressed labour communities of Kerala. This would have resulted in the children from these marriages becoming part of the SyrChr communities.

The Synod of Diamper has a "Decree XI" in it's "Action IX. Of the Reformation of Manners." section that reads: "Whereas there are great numbers of Christians who for want of having the Fear of God and the Church before their Eyes, do cohabit publickly with Concubines, to the great scandal of Christianity; the Vicars shall therefore with great Charity admonish all such Offenders, three times declaring to them, That if they do not reform, they must declare them Excommunicate, and if after so many Admonitions they do not turn away their Concubines, they must be Excommunicated until they are effectually parted, and be punished with other Penalties at the pleasure of the Prelate, according to the time that they have lived in that Sin, and when it shall so happen that their Concubines are their Slaves, they shall constrain them not only to turn them out of their Houses, but to send them out of the Country where they live, that there may be no more danger of their relapsing, which shall be likewise observed as to all other Women where there is the same danger."

The SyrChr communities continued to be churned as the fortunes of the kings & chieftains they owed allegiance to changed over time. The strange bubble like nature of the caste system prevalent in Kerala allowed the SyrChr communities to retain their West Asian customs and practises to a significant degree.

--Veliath 12:45, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Do let me know what you'll have to say. I have tried to quote citations - I feel that would be more convincing and allow us to reach agreement faster. I'm sorry for not responding sooner to this discussion. I don't have time except on weekends for major edits/submissions. --Veliath

Dicsussion

Thanks Veliaths for your musings (peppered with citations) on the Syrian Christians (SyrChr) which is illuminating. I would like to add my own observations on it. First of all Veliath is right that Syrian Christian community is not a homogeneous community, like the rest of the communities in Kerala. It has converts into it from different castes that were/are prevalent in Kerala. I think Veliath has overstated the West Asian influence of the Mapilla community. From time immemorial Indian Subcontinent is well known for its diverse influences from all corners of the known world. Remember what happened to Alexander's remaining soldiery. They got settled in the northwestern India and were absorbed into the greater Indian population instead of remaining as a distinct community. Similar is the case with the Maharashtrian Konkanastha Brahmins and Rajputs (who are the decendents of the Scythian invaders and settlers in India in the 6th century C.E.) who both have invented complex genealogies of Hindu gods to trace their origins to the vedic times. Hence, i do not see why the Yavanas and sundry other West Asians who settled in Kerala should remain distinct as the Mappilla community in Malabar coast. On the other hand the Yavanas might have got absorbed into the greater Hindu community of Kerala. The only documented and well demarcated west Asian group in Malabar coast is the Knanaya community. user:Maabahuka(202.164.136.21 10:26, 6 June 2006 (UTC))

There are huge quantitative & qualitative differences between the West Asian influence and the other communities you speak of.

Quantitively the West Asian influence is not confined to migrations at specific points in time. You seem to think that only migrations of people can influence a region. Not true. My citations are to point out that there has been constant contact with West Asia. I emphasized the start of the Christian Era presence to show that the St Thomas legend was not all that far-fetched. It wasn't meant to mean that Yavanas came in only then. I have put in references into the History of Kerala article that show the constant contact with West Asia. Contrast this with individual migrations and invasions you compare them to.

Qualitatively, the West Asian contacts were hardly disruptive. Infact, the West Asians were patronized not for their ability to be absorbed, but for their ability to remain distinct and a source of trade with West Asia. It cannot be compared to Scythians invaders or other communities whose contacts with India were sporadic, isolated and disruptive.

Perhaps the greatest proof of the West Asian influence is that before the arrival of the Europeans, the Christian & Muslim communities of Kerala looked to West Asian centres for religious guidance. The Christian communities brought in priests from Persia or Antioch. The Muslims ofcourse looked to Arabia. This is very well documented and I can provide citations if you cannot find them.

Frankly the West Asian influence in Kerala cannot be overstated if close to 34% of the population are Muslims & SyrChrs!

--Veliath 14:06, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Pointless articles

Latest comment: 17 years ago6 comments4 people in discussion

Most of the articles related to Kerala fly in the face of Wiki pillars for their irrelevance and poverty. They should be quickly deleted to maintain the quality of Wiki. I propose deletion of these articles immediately.

These are only a handful. There are many more that should be eliminated to keep Wiki clean. Savemalayalam 10:47, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

In my opinion, most of those articles are indeed relevant encyclopedically. Personally, I dont see how it affects any of the pillars of wikipedia as you say. The Poratta article is part of the Kerala Cuisine article. The Pin codes are part of the Series on Indian pin codes. And film articles are also encyclopedic in nature, given that they maintain a neutral point of view in its prose. Could you explain why these articles are irrelavent? -- thunderboltz^{a.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK}11:34, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Attention Deepu Joseph: The first pillar of Wiki states that Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of articles. We have food items like kanchi, puzhukku, kaadi, pulichikadi, chammanthi, puliyinchi, anarkali, bonda, pazhampori (vazhakkappam)& co. If you think poratta is worth an entry, they all deserve it too. Would you care to have them on Wiki? By the standards of Kerala related articles, I assume that many would think it proper. However, I believe, that would be sheer idiocy. Your Porotta has a standalone article and it is not part of another article as you said. The first pillar would entail a sense of propriety when creating a new article. Most of the posters from Kerala lack it and they think every one who has access to Internet can write or edit articles. If Nadodikkattu and certain other movies are worth having articles on them, I would like to write articles on certain so-called blue films also.Many of them are very popular. If you think maintaining a neutral policy alone is important, you are wrong. The real vandalism is filling Wiki with such muck as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalude_Ravukal or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.A.Qudsi

Either such muck should be cleaned out or Wiki be left to the mercy of vandals who would gladly make an article of his wife's delivery and his child's baptism. I would like to know what Tintin have to say on this. Savemalayalam 17:31, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

My take : I think Kerala People's Party is/was a party recognised by the election commission. It is part of a project which now includes basic data about every political party (including every eerkkili parties). Better to keep it that way.

The List_of_Famous_Politicians_of_Kerala and List_of_Politicians_of_Kerala includes the same thing. The first definitely has to go. Category:Kerala_politics already contains the list of Kerala politicians. Unless there is a plan to include more data in the list (maybe, sort them by political parties), the other list can also be deleted.

'List of places in Kerala' : Similar comments as above. We already have Category:Cities and towns in Kerala.

Pincodes : What Deepu said.

The_Kerala_High_Court_Act : Delete ? Doesn't look useful.

No strong opinions on the rest. Tintin (talk) 17:54, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

There really are no notability guides on wikipedia (all that exist are a few non official essays). As such, I doubt if any of the above (apart from the High court act which might be traswikied to wikisource) will ever pass an AfD; even if all of us Keralites back it to be deleted. Right now, my opinion on the lists and Kerala Poratta is divided.

We have to keep in mind that Wiki is not paper, and as such, we are not hindred by a good number of the problems faced by traditional paper encyclopedia. There is in fact no harm in having these article here; and someone might actually find them useful. -- thunderboltz^{a.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK}04:25, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

IMHO, wikipedia is the only place where you will find articles of this nature. It is certainly one of Wikipedia's strengths. As a quizzer I can attest to that. :-) while some of the articles you have mentioned maybe trivial, I think the others should stay - including & especially Kerala_Porotta. Frankly, I think chammanthi, pazhampori etc are worth having articles of their own. Or at least one article that will include all of these...something along the lines of List of Indian snacks. --anirudh 15:59, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Big Blunder

Latest comment: 17 years ago7 comments3 people in discussion

This Mamankam article is misinformation. Where did this fellow get such fantastic information from? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamankam Savemalayalam 19:36, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

The fellow who wrote horrendous blunders in the Mamankam article left a comment on my talk page. See [[1]] I think I need to be a little harsh here. He is not only an ignoramus, but also is brazenly flaunting his ignorance. The article says, "Samoothiri who ruled over twelve years would have to publicly cut his throat. In the 17th century, this tradition was modified and led to an annual event where the Samoothiri declared that after an annual 12-day festival Mamankam festival, it was lawful for anyone wishing, to try to assassinate him." Firstly, there was no such tradition of a zamorin killing himself. Every educatede man in Kerala would recongise this to be a blunder, I suppose. The fellow probably must have lifted the idea from a blundering article titled Running amok written by a non-Indian. The article cites an unreliable source. Alexander Hamilton's account is not history. It is either mere hearsay or white man's fantasy about the Orient. A person not familiar with Kerala can easily take his Hamilton's account as factual. But if somebody from Kerala thinks so and goes on to write an encyclopedia article based on that, it is unpardonable. It is sheer idiocy. How many zamorins you know killed themselves after ruling for 12 years? Apparently, this fellow has no use of his brain. He merely copies and thinks what he does is great! Mr. Rajesh, people like you are the bane of the Wiki. You create many stubs (many or most of them irrelevant and silly) and leave it for others to work on. And you earn titles and honour with the help of your nonsense from the unsuspecting and naive people. The first thing to do to improve Wiki (that is what everyone is supposed to do) is to deal firmly with the nonsense spewed by your sort. You will hear more about your blunders. Savemalayalam 08:54, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Hello SaveMalayalam,

I read your post regarding authenticity of the article Mamankam. The topic is originally a copy from the article Zamorin, if you trace the dates you can find it easly. I just made a link to the topic Mamankam. I dont think its a non wikithing. As other wiki users told you be bold, if you think the topic is wrong contribute yourself. You just rome shouting (Bark) but do nothing. Please backtrack on the articles and you could get some hints, after that just 'Bark'

To be fair to both of you, it was originally added by a non-Malayali. Please defer from personal attacks.

Where can one find an authentic and detailed account of Mamankam ? Tintin (talk) 09:37, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

As Tintin said, no personal attacks, please. It spoils the entire mood, and is considered bad wikiquette (and could even get you banned). The data on the running amok page seems to be from 1911 Webster Encyclopedia, which I believe would pass as a reliable source. If anybody has a Malayalam dictionary/encyclopedia, looking up chaver or Mamankam would be the ideal way to solve this. (Looks at Monsieur Tintin and hopes he has his akilavijanakosham nearby). -- thunderboltz^{a.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK}10:01, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay. Will make a phonecall today :-) Tintin (talk) 10:38, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Mamankam

This is roughly what Akhilavijnanakosam (DC Books, 1988-90, 4 volumes) says about Mamankam. Many of the lines are prefixed or suffixed with 'supposed to be' or 'believed to be' :

The earliest known Mamankam is supposed to have been held in 829 AD.
The Chera kings used to meet with their feudal lords (naduvazhis) and such prominent people to discuss the affairs of state on the banks of Bharathapuzha. This evolved into Mamankam.
Some of these naduvazhis used to express their allegiance to the King by making some of their soldiers commit suicide. The rituals mentioned by the 10th century traveller Abu Syed could be a reference to this (there is no other reference to suicides in this article).
After the Cheras, the Perumpatappu rulers continued it. In their absence, Valluvanad rulers took over, and then the Zamorin, after he defeated them and conquered Thirunavaya.
This continued till the time of Tipu's invasions and the disintegration of Zamorin's kingdom.

The article about 'Chaverpada' contains these references to Kerala :

They find mention in the writings of the 9th century (sic) traveller Abu Syed
They were used in the Chera-Chola wars of the 11th century.
There are records of Valluvakonathiri using them in the 16th century.
Kandarmenon pattu and Ramachapanickar pattu are famous chavettu pattukal

Tintin (talk) 05:44, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Raghu provided an excellent link - http://dli.iiit.ac.in/ - which contains many old books. I checked Logan's Malabar Manual for mentions about Mamankam. The relevant sections start from page 191 (163 in the book). I have copied these few pages to User:Tintin1107/Logan but they may be a little difficult to read.

Logan initially quotes directly from Hamilton :

It was an ancient custom for the Zamorin to reign but twelve Years and no longer. If he died before his Term was Expired it saved him a troublesome Ceremony of cutting his own Throat on a public Scaffold erected for that Purpose, He first made a Feast for ail his Nobility and Gentry, who are very numerous. Alter the Feast he saluted his Guests and went on the Scaffold, and very decently cut his own Ihroat in the View of the Assembly, and his Body was a little While after burned with great Pomp and Ceremony, and the Grandees elected a new Zamorin. Whether that Custom was a religious or a civil Ceremony I know not, but it is now laid aside.

But he does not seem to believe the cut-throat part. He says two pages later :

The Kerala Mahatmya so far corroborates Hamilton's story that it declares the king used to be deposed at this festival, but there is no mention of self-immolation, although it is quite possible the deposed kings may have occasionally adopted this mode of escape from the chagrin of not being re-elected by those who had hitherto been their adherents.

My feeling is that instead of eliminating the Hamilton version, we too should mention him and add that it is not corroborated by other sources. Tintin (talk) 03:16, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

PD images

Latest comment: 17 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

This site contains a few images that I believe are in public domain. -- thunderboltz^{a.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK}11:08, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Prem Nazir

Latest comment: 17 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

I saw a program in Kannadi in Asianet this morning which argued that Nazir has acted in only 470 movies and not 630 odd as is conventionally believed. Is it a big issue in the media in Kerala, and do the claims of this guy look authentic ? Tintin (talk) 09:38, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I saw the programme too. What the guy says apperas to be correct, IMO. They also showed one film which had claimed to be a Nazir starrer (per the list of 630 films), but that did not feature the star anywhere. Also, perhaps it must be correct that many of them were simply dubbed versions. The IMDB listing also shows the many alternate names of his movies. -- thunderboltz^{a.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK}10:09, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

AFD : K.S. Chathunny

Latest comment: 17 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/K.S. Chathunny

Has anybody here heard of Elite Mission Hospital (it seems to be in Koorkenchery per the Thrissur article)? Is Elite industries the company that manufactures Elite bread and cakes? -- thunderboltz^{a.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK}12:49, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

http://www.elitemissionhospital.com/aboutus.php seems to have a photo of Chathunny. I dont think the founder of a hospital deserves an article for himself. Perhaps redirect and move to Elite Mission Hospital? -- thunderboltz^{a.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK}12:54, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Per Rajesh's comment (thank you, Rajesh), it seems the Elite group is indeed notable. But I'm still confused if it is necessary to have an article on K.S. Chathunny? -- thunderboltz^{a.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK}14:00, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Same opinion here. He is not notable on his own Tintin (talk) 14:05, 26 July 2006 (UTC)