Over at WT:FILM, user Jovian Eclipse raised the potential violation of WP:TOP100 and WP:CLIST by a number of film lists (here and here). Because I am not familiar with the policy, I have brought the question here. The lists in question are as follows:
I suspect that at least a substantial portion of these lists are in fact problematic, and if so, I wonder whether more needs to be done to avoid this. Maybe a custom WP:Editnotice would do for pages like this? — HTGS (talk) 04:41, 27 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- @HTGS, good thought! I created an editnotice template we can use here: {{Top 100 list copyright editnotice}}. For questions, would it be better to direct folks here or to WP:Media copyright questions? I can run through the examples above and add it later if everything looks good. Cheers, {{u|Sdkb}} talk 20:03, 27 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- Thank you Sdkb! I think as long as there's a link to this policy, questions are probably best directed to the place people want to answer them. — HTGS (talk) 00:49, 28 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- Okay, I've added the editnotice those articles. Please lmk if there appear to be any issues. Cheers, {{u|Sdkb}} talk 05:12, 28 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- If the list in question is solely based on opinions of one or more writers - and not done through a jury or poll type system (like the Oscars, which makes the selection more objective) - then per the policy we cannot have the full list in a given article. (The AFI ones have been cleared with their approval) A top 100 list may only list up to the first 10, for example. Masem (t) 20:11, 27 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
A top 100 list may only list up to the first 10, for example
. @Masem, I wasn't aware of that; is it documented somewhere? And any thoughts on my question above re questions? {{u|Sdkb}} talk 20:55, 27 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- Beyond the copyright issues, some of these don't actually appear notable per NLIST. They're just essentially random group's own lists that don't have a claim to notability. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 21:20, 27 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- I agree, although I think it’s worth evaluating the copyright question first and independently. — HTGS (talk) 00:42, 28 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- Masem, do you have a link to the decision or information about the AFI lists? On reading that part myself, I assumed it meant that the AFI lists were open licensed but couldn’t see that on their site (eg [1]). — HTGS (talk) 00:55, 28 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- See the talk page of those lists, like Talk:AFI's 100 Years...100 Stars, and see the ticket that affirms they are in the public domain. Masem (t) 01:09, 28 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Tagging some top contributors of the policy page here: @Wikidemon, @Anthony, @Omegatron, @Gmaxwell, @Jheald, @ViperSnake151, @Tony1, @Ned Scott, @Hammersoft, @Lineslarge, @Jamesday, @Aquegg, @JohnLai, @Fastfission. Would request them to put forward their views on this matter. Thanks! Jovian Eclipse (talk) 12:35, 21 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- Also: @Moonriddengirl, @Pigsonthewing, @LaundryPizza03, @Minimac, @Flatscan, @Isochrone, @Fuhghettaboutit, @DexDor, @Dcoetzee, @Fæ. Thanks again. Jovian Eclipse (talk) 12:42, 21 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- Definitely start by AfD'ing all the ones that fail WP:GNG. Then, we can debate about the removal of the remaining lists and emphasizing the encyclopedic aspects of the lists. As for including only a portion of the lists, it's a bit unclear what cutoff should be used to meet WP:NFCC#3b and WP:NFCC#5, if excerpts are permissible at all. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 02:02, 22 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- Another example what I removed non-free images for Characters of StarCraft as a list article. Surveyor Mount (talk) 12:03, 25 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- That is not appropriate removal. List articles can use selective non-free images, just not on most or every single entry. Nor is this the non-free issue at discussion here, which is when the text part of the list may be a problem. Masem (t) 12:07, 25 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I think there's been a huge oversight in non-free media particular music snippets or snippets of songs. Ever since the digital era, songs have Digital Rights Management attached to them. The majority of music is now streamed via Tidal, Spotify, Pandora and Apple Music, with a few other key market players. It is impossible to legitimately or legally obtain snippets or soundbites of contemporary music without ripping songs from YouTube, or another illegal site and using something like audacity to snip the song into a suitable size for use on wikipedia. The fact we allow music snippets actively promotes the illegal download/ripping of music - there is no legal or legitimate way to obtain samples of contemporary music as it was never intended to appear as an MP3 (or similar) format on a user's device. It's intended to be streamed or consumed via an app not as a file on someone's device. The current set-up on wiki allows and promotes the circumvention of artists' rights and promotes copyright violation. I think there's a need for a discussion about the purpose of non-free media sound files and the practicalities of allowing them when in reality they cannot be obtained legally even if the way they appear on wikipedia respects copyright law. >> Lil-unique1 (talk) — 15:49, 24 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- Music is still released on CDs or through purchasable options. So the theory that music is only meant for streaming is not true, and we're definitely not in violation of that. Even if that was true, IANAL but the case law on time-shifting linear broadcast television (Sony Corp. of America v. Universal City Studios, Inc.) would mean that our use of short snippets of streamed songs is also fair use. Masem (t) 18:32, 24 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- Okay point taken on music which is released via CD/LP. However, DRM on CDs means that ripping or transferring from a CD to another format i.e. MP3 on a computer is considered illegal. The whole point of rights management is to prevent one person buying the medium to simply create other copies to transfer/allow others to listen without contributing to the original transaction. Furthermore, more contemporary releases are sometimes only released digitally and therefore when songs are released for streaming there's no legal way to obtain a snippet. Its entirely feasible that media which is only available to stream is included as non-free media snippets on wikipedia when there is no legal way to obtain and upload a sample. While fair use does apply to the use of the sample, the act of downloading or creating a copy for fair use is not considered legal. An example of this is photocopying an academic textbook. You can copy a set number of pages for personal academic use without commerciality. However, you cannot upload and use the copied pages without then obtaining permission from the author(s). I'm not sure that the time-shifting linear broadcast case law quoted is quite the same here. I'm going to look into this one further as I believe there are loopholes in our processes and I'm not convinced "the snippets we hold are fair use" is enough to mean Wikipedia is legally and ethically compliant with copy right law. There is a lack of guidance around how we treat samples and snippets. The act of having a sample to demonstrate a point is legal and fair use however, we should be ethically and legally providing advice and guidance on how to obtain such samples. The outcome might be legal (i.e. sharing a small sample of a song) but the means to get there seems to be murky waters. If wikipedia had a plug in to streaming platforms and they held the rights to the physical snippet/hosted it then it would be different. It feels to me like we're saying "we don't care/it doesn't matter how you obtain the snippet but as long as you satisfy WP:NFCC and attribute it with the non-free license, this is okay". >> Lil-unique1 (talk) — 00:42, 27 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- Wikimedia does have a legal team, and many of these questions have been asked and established in the past. They're very knowledgeable on fair use rights and the like, and they would have warned us long ago if our non-free media sample approaches were breaking fair use allowances. Masem (t) 01:14, 27 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
- @Lil-unique1: You're asking questions that most likely none of us here are really capable of answering to your satisfaction simply because of WP:LD. Perhaps, you'd be better off contacting the WMF Legal directly and see what they have to say. If it agrees with your assessment, then it should be able to provide guidance on how the current WP:NFCC needs to be revised. Perhaps, based upon what you've posted above, the WMF will need to modify the EDP part of wmf:Resolution:Licensing policy because what you're posting about likely would affect all local Wikipedia projects that allow non-free content to be used. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:24, 27 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
