Wikipedia talk:Meetup/NYC

New editor retention at Wikipedia instructional events - discussion

This conversation began on the Wikimedia NYC discord in July 2024 about new editor retention at Wikimedia NYC events in relation to the first Wikicurious event at Civic Hall. At the debut Wikicurious, 6 editors acted as WikiCoaches, floating around the room, leading beginners in learning how to edit Wikipedia. The event had a big turn out of 150+ people. This conversation is about how to develop techniques and systems to retain editors at beginner-focused events. Please add any thoughts in a reply below. All ideas/input welcome!

Pinging potentially interested members and friends of Wikimedia NYC and also other Wiki-community organizers who might have ideas: @Pharos @Rhododendrites @Mozucat @Emjackson42 @Legoktm @Pacita (WikiNYC) @Bluerasberry @Shanluan @JaneNova @Raggachampiongirl @Rpeters97 @Nikitag94 @RightCowLeftCoast @Peaceray @User:RoySmith @User:Mary Mark Ockerbloom @User:Sm8900 @User:Windblown29 @User:BlaueBlüte @User:Kosboot @User:Wileycount @User:DutchTreat @User:Epicgenius @User:CmdrDan @User:Roman Spinner @User:SWinxy @User:Doctorxgc @User:Jeremyb

Conversation transferred with permission of @ComplexRational @Jim.henderson @Hexatekin @Tduk

hexatekin — 07/21/2024 9:59 PM We should prob in the future communicate among wiki coaches about expectations around following up w attendees and where they can go for help after event

TDuk — 07/21/2024 10:05 PM great idea - we should come up with some general guidelines about how to do it

ComplexRational — 07/21/2024 10:51 PM Agreed I shared my talk page with a few people but this should definitely be streamlined

TDuk — 07/22/2024 8:14 AM i'm suggesting we (whoever "we" is) should be more proactive than talk pages. maybe even getting consent, "if you like, i'll keep track of your progress over the next month". it's not a good feeling to be introduced to something new and to then feel like you're abandoned as an aside, i wonder, do we have anything like this : a sign-up space for more "active" mentoring, a place new users can go to ask for someone to just watch over them? though would that be inviting too many vandals to use it?

hexatekin — 07/22/2024 10:36 AM An even more general question is what are our responsibilities for answering ongoing questions of new learners that start editing at wmnyc events? How can events scale according to our mainly volunteer capacity to onboard new learners and/or redirect them to new learning onboarding on wikis like the tea house..

hexatekin — 07/22/2024 10:43 AM Had these same qs as Art and Feminism started scaling in 2014..

Jim Henderson — 07/22/2024 10:46 AM For a few especially promising prospects I swap usertalk page messages and assure that we are mutually watch listed. This only once or twice worked. One obstacle that occurs to me is, my talk page is full of long robo announcements, which are necessary impersonal.

TDuk — 07/22/2024 4:51 PM there should be a way to segregate the two

Jim Henderson — 07/22/2024 10:20 PM Maybe also or instead, bot and group notices ought to have a byte count limit and rely on links for details.

wil540 — 07/22/2024 10:59 AM One idea: The chapter could collect a list of experienced editors who are willing to be mentors. At local events, if an attendee expresses interest in ongoing mentorship, we can connect them with someone off of said list.

hexatekin — 07/22/2024 2:59 PM Scaling recruiting new editors according to available volunteer time and post event comms all seem like great discussions for organizers, staff, and/or Board! Not sure if this is best channel for this type of feedback, but maybe it is?!

wil540 — 07/22/2024 3:58 PM @hexatekin good point. this is a worthwhile topic and perhaps should be put somewhere on Wiki? @TDuk how would you feel about continuing this conversation on the Talk page of the Wikimeta event page?

Jim Henderson — 07/22/2024 4:38 PM I am probably not the only coach who could be suckered into the deal with just a special "Coach" cap. For each event, at least at big ones like this, we might have an easily found rogues gallery for our coachees to click "That's the one! I tried what she said and it didn't work!" and leave a msg in our talkpage or the event one.

hexatekin — 07/22/2024 6:27 PM It seems best to move to meta to avoid lost in the sauce, but ultimately now that we have some paid staff though not sure beyond Pacita who that is or roles that this discussion should be had more by paid staff and board doing event planning about volunteer labor and following up with attendees procedures?

Pacita — 07/22/2024 6:35 PM This is a really good topic for discussion. @wil540 i think this would be good to also add to the agenda for the board strategy meeting in August.

-Wil540 art (talk) 04:05, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Was there something in Meta? Jim.henderson (talk) 22:58, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

@Jim.henderson On discord it was decided this conversation would be best placed here. Unless I missed something. - Wil540 art (talk) 15:07, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

There seem to me to be two paradigms we can offer for follow-up. #1 is that editors can offer to explicitly track the progress of the new editor for some amount of time - I can see this working on an individual basis or as a team of people who will track several editors. #2 is that there can be a "new editor" helpboard, maybe per event so as not to seem like "jumping into the deep end". That might be a good way for those new editors to socialize with each other too. Tduk (talk) 15:22, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

It was suggested in Discord that this discussion about volunteer labor and following up with event attendees be added to the August Board strategy meeting. I would be interested in learning about how participant follow-up will be handled at the upcoming Wikicurious.. Hexatekin (talk) 03:14, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

kosboot — I know many in the group forsee a questionnaire. Somehow this doesn't sit well with me because 1) I think it's premature and 2) I don't trust the responses which will probably be based on prospective desires rather than actual experiences. I think we need to do some more work in researching to see what has been effective in other communities. I remember speaking to DGG about this and he saw events as only part solution. His tactic was to actually develop a (professional) relationship with the mentee so that he could be contacted at any time (via talk page or email). This kind of mentor/mentee connection strikes me as a more effective means of retaining users. DGG also had low expectations: For any event, he didn't expect more than a single person might become an occasional editor. - kosboot (talk) 20:17, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

That is exactly what I was suggesting, though perhaps (optionally) a bit more proactive. We should try for this. Tduk (talk) 18:44, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

This brings me back to the labor question. I remember talking to DGG about this also. He was retired and with the financial means to volunteer an amazing about of time. We need to consider how the labor being asked of volunteers affects who is represented among Wikimedia volunteers. I think a mentor/mentee relationship cultivated for those who might want it after events may be more successful than just training people one day and sending them to the Discord or docs, but how would the mentees be supported? I have had many experiences of people being impatient with me asking for advice about Wikipedia stuff after events with a lack of understanding of the labor they were asking me to do in answering their questions. We need to set people's expectations about how much help is reasonable and available for them to ask for after events and where to get it. I would also say a questionnaire provides limited useful data. Hexatekin (talk) 14:02, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

This is part of why I think some sort of (informal) group effort might be worth looking into - it would allow life issues that require volunteers' time to not make as big of an impact -- smooth things out as it were. Originally, one of the things I thought about is asking people who you're helping "would you like me to monitor your progress on the site and intervene/offer advice if needed? would you like some of my colleagues to do so as well?".. I feel like some users might be hesitant to ask for help or unsure of what to even ask, and getting consent on this up front might be worth looking into. Tduk (talk) 15:34, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

I wonder if we should try to put together a small follow-up coaching session at a later date. As we talk to new editors, invite them to meet, say, a week later at a nearby library, restaurant, or other venue to chat and edit. Small group, three to six. Everybody already has an idea what they want to work on; they just need help on several points and, in the case of a new article, the approval of someone experienced who can save them the disappointment of AfD. A real edit-athon usually has a hour lecture, sometimes two, but if they've had that then there's no need to repeat it. Me being an old retired fellow, my schedule is pretty flexible. Veblen's "Leisure Class". Jim.henderson (talk) 14:48, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Onboarding new editors, in my experience, is most effective when I do live editing that guides them from my process of evaluating article quality to scope what I want to edit, my research of OA archives and resources that will enable me to support my addition of information, my differentiation between "facts" and "opinions," my addition of sources to defend my articulation of facts, and how to integrate those facts into a pre-existing article in ways that don't compromise the other editors' work. This method prepares me to defend my edits on the Talk pages and positions me to feel empowered to make further edits. Happy to provide a suite of onboarding new editors resources that I have created over the years. Simply email me or DM via social media, regarding your interest. JaneNova (talk) 18:36, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi @JaneNova, this sounds promising and we are interested. Could you please email Wikimedia NYC at info@wikimedianyc.org ? We are open to hearing about all ideas and experiences regarding new editor retention. Thank you for the offer. - Wil540 art (talk) 19:36, 1 November 2024 (UTC)