Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/The Holocaust in Greece

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The Holocaust in Greece

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Nominator(s): Buidhe (talk)

The Holocaust in Greece (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

• Featured article candidates/The Holocaust in Greece/archive1

Contemplating a FAC for this and looking for any feedback that might help improve the article. It's shorter than my earlier FA for the Holocaust in Slovakia, but I think it does a good job of covering the core aspects of the topic concisely, while leaving space for notable sub-topics such as the Holocaust in Salonica or the Holocaust in Bulgarian-occupied Greece. Thanks Hog Farm for the GA review. (t · c) buidhe 00:09, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

CommentsSupport by CPA

Still important to me because my great-grandfather survived the Holocaust in Poland (Auschwitz). Well at least that's what they said to me but who knows maybe he died there and they never told us about this. Thus this is important to me; will have a look in a couple of days. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 12:37, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

• Is it posible to add information about the Jews who lived in the German and Italian-held Greece?
  • This is discussed in the background section. I'm not sure it's helpful to split into German and Italian-held Greece as the distinctions between Greek Jews were based on the country's history prior to the war, not where the line was drawn in 1941.
• About half emigrated in the first decade after the war. To where?
  • To Israel and other countries
• In the fifteenth century, many Ladino-speaking Sephardim settled in the Ottoman Empire, including areas that are now Greece, after their expulsion from Spain and Portugal at the end of the fifteenth century. Maybe refraphse this to "In the late fifteenth century, many Ladino-speaking Sephardim settled in the Ottoman Empire, including areas that are now Greece, after their expulsion from Spain and Portugal." since I think it's unnassary to use twice the same date in one event.
  • Done
• The prewar Jewish communities of Southern, Western, and Northern Greece each had a different history I am not sure we should use upper cases for the derections of Greece? Unless it's a poper noun but I doubt they are proper nouns.
  • Done
• in the 1820s, and others fled because of suspicion that they opposed the Greek insurgents To where to the Ottoman Empire?
  • The sources confirm this, added
• Central Europe as well as Sephardim from the Ottoman Empire settled in Athens Are these the same Sephardim who fled the country before?
  • The sources don't address whether they are the same ones as fled the country earlier. My personal guess is that most likely some were and others weren't.
• At the end of the fifteenth century, the sultan allowed Sephardim --> "At the end of the fifteenth century, the Sultan allowed Sephardim"
  • The current capitalization is based on Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Capital_letters#Titles_of_people which says to only capitalize titles like sultan if they are "directly juxtaposed with the person's name"

• Well which sultan was he then? There were three sultans at the end of the fifteenth century and per MOS:JOBTITLES as you pointed before it also states: "When a title is used to refer to a specific person as a substitute for their name during their time in office" thus if this was a specific person which in this sentence looks like it is then we should give it an upper case.

• Thanks, I've rephrased to eliminate the capitalization question. Bowman doesn't say which sultan, so I checked another book—Sultanic Saviors and Tolerant Turks by Marc David Baer, which states on page 131 that Bayezid II was probably the sultan that was meant. (t · c) buidhe 09:15, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

• At first, wealthy merchants left for Europe, Latin America, and the United States Per MOS.OVERLINK large geographic areas shouldn't be linked.
  • Done
• In 1936, the fascist but not antisemitic Metaxas dictatorship overthrew unstable parliamentary politics That's the first time I've read the Metaxas dictatorship was a fascist one? The article itself says his regime could be described as Fasicst. Is that what the source says?
  • Well, I was basing this on Fleming, who describes Metaxas as a fascist dictator who openly admired Adolf Hitler, if not his racist ideologies. After checking, I can say that while not all the sources use the word "fascist" to describe Metaxas' regime, none of them contradict it either. I've removed the word "fascist" as I'm not sure it helps the reader understand.

That's anything from me right now. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 22:23, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

• Thanks so much for your comments! (t · c) buidhe 01:17, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
• either allow Italian troops to occupy Greece or else war We're talking about the whole country right? The Ohi Day article says only occupy certain unspecified "strategic locations".
  • Neither of the cited sources makes that distinction. Fleming states that it was an "ultimatum that Italian troops be allowed to occupy Greece".
• 613 died and 3,743 were wounded, most famously Mordechai Frizis Per MOS:NUMNOTES try to avoid figures at the start of a sentence.
  • Fixed
• most famously Mordechai Frizis, a Greek colonel.. Typo here.
  • I don't see a typo there.

• There's a second full stop behind "colonel".

• Now fixed! (t · c) buidhe 00:54, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

• During the winter of 1940–1941, Italians and Greeks fought in Albania Isn't it "During the winter of 1940/1941, Italians and Greeks fought in Albania"?
  • MOS:DATERANGE indicates that the n-dash is correct.
• After this registration, as many as 3,500 Jewish men were drafted into labor battalions by Organization Todt What's men in this context? Does this include every boy of any age or was there a certain age when men were forced to work? Also what happened to Jewish women and children?
  • Per Apostolou, the roundup targeted Jewish men between the ages of 18 and 45. Not sure if it makes sense to include the exact age range. It appears that only around a third of the eligible men were actually drafted, although the sources don't really cover that. Women and children were not affected by registration at this point, unless they fled to the Italian zone they would have remained in Salonika until 1943.
• expulsion of Cham Albanians and displacement of many ethnic Macedonians Only Macedonians thus no Bulgarians?
  • The cited source does not mention Bulgarians. I am not aware of any others that connect the situation of Greek Jews versus Bulgarians in Greece during/after the war.
• expected to be put to forced labor in Poland.[76][77][78][79] Per WP:CITEBUNDLE and Help:Citation merging it's better to merge citations if there are more than three in one sentence/paragraph or remove one.
  • Done
• The Italian occupation authorities and consul Guelfo Zamboni vigorously protested Isn't it "Consul Guelfo Zamboni"?
  • Done
• On 24 March, Jews from all the remaining communities in mainland Greece were arrested Isn't it "on mainland Greece"?
  • To me "in" sounds right and it's the more common usage. Maybe it's an ENGVAR issue?

• Am not sure, maybe?

• The mayor of Corfu stated, "Our good friends the Germans have cleansed the island from the Jewish riffraf" Mayor needs an upper case per MOS:JOBTITLES.
  • Done
• He was the only leader of a major European church to condemn the Holocaust This is a little bit misleading. Elio Toaff claims that Pope Pius XII has condemned many times the false race theory and aided many Jews. While some say he was weak. However, that doesn't mean Archbishop Damaskinos was the only leader of a major European church even if the Pope was weak back then.
  • Is it really disputed that the pope did not make any public statements explicitly condemning the Holocaust? For example, the book The Pope's Dilemma states that the pope's "understanding of the role God had assigned him prohibited him from taking a strong stand against mass atrocities: warning Catholics that involvement or complicity endangered their salvation or instructing bishops to do the same; or speaking out forcefully on behalf of victims of mass atrocities; or publicly–or even surreptitiously–alerting Jews to what he knew of the deportations." Anyway the statement is verifiable to the cited source: Fleming states that Damaskinos was "the only head of a European church to officially condemn the German occupation’s treatment of Jews". (t · c) buidhe 09:15, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

• Good point.

That's anything from me. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 11:30, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

• I'm really sorry I was not able to get to your comments earlier, I've been quite busy IRL. I hope you're satisfied by my replies here. (t · c) buidhe 09:15, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

• No worries. I've been busy IRL as well. Looks good to me. Support. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 22:47, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Image review - pass

I will attempt this. Hog Farm _Talk 00:40, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Was recently asked by Nikkimaria to provide a source to verify map contents for an image at a FAC, can this be done for File:Map Greece expansion 1832-1947-en.svg? Current source is just another user-created map on Commons

Same for File:Triple Occupation of Greece.png

Source link for File:Prisoners sorting confiscated property at Auschwitz II-Birkenau.jpg is giving me a 504 gateway timeout. Does it work for you? I think the 504 errors are sometimes only temporary. The other ushmm.org links aren't working either, so it could well be that the website is temporarily down

No concerns for other images. I hope I'm not being too picky here, as I don't do many of these. Hog Farm _Talk 01:21, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

• Hog Farm Hi, sorry it took me a while to get to this. I've now added sources for 1 and 2. The third image's source link is currently working for me. (t · c) buidhe 09:42, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Source review - pass

• All sources are highly reliable, and scholarly.
• There's heavy reliance on The Holocaust in Greece published by CUP, but this seems excusable given the subject matter
• As a comment, you might want to seek out non-scholarly sources ahead of a FAC, particularly to flesh out the human angles. They might not be available in English though.
• Spot checks:
  • Ref 55 (Apostolou 2018, p. 98): Checks out
  • Ref 159 (Kavala 2018, p. 205): This material is on page 204, but checks out
  • Ref 187 (Battinou 2003, p. 41): Checks out, but it could be noted that the source says it houses items owned by Holocaust victims
• No issues with close paraphrasing in any of the above.
• I'd suggest consulting Mazower's general history of the German occupation of Greece ahead of a FAC.

Overall, pass. Nick-D (talk) 07:16, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

• Thanks so much for the source review. In terms of the Kavala reference, the same point is covered on both page 205 and 204 so I added the other page to the range. I also reviewed Mazower's chapter on Greek Jews in Inside Hitler's Greece and did not find anything to add to the article. I don't think that citing non-scholarly sources would be helpful in this article. (t · c) buidhe 07:51, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

HF

Reviewed this at GAN, will take another look. Hog Farm _Talk 17:53, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

• " hundreds of Thracian Jews were forced into Bulgarian labor battalions," - This isn't an issue with the article at all, just an aside that a skim of the section linked to by the labor battalions looks like it is pretty shoddily sourced. If it is as bad as it looks to my untrained eye (also tagged with a fringe views section), it may be best to drop the link
  • Unlinked
• "battalions by Organization Todt a Nazi a civil and military engineering organization" - comma after Todt, I think
  • done
• "despite obstruction from British intelligence" - Why was British intelligence obstructing this?
  • It probably had to do with tensions in Israel/Palestine, but the source doesn't say so directly: "Indeed British intelligence continuously tried to thwart Jewish boat movement from Greece to Turkey until late summer 1944, even though the British cabinet decided in July 1942 that any Jewish refugee escaping German occupation in Europe and reaching Turkey would be given an immigration certificate to Palestine/Israel."
• "As in other European countries, American Jewish charities, especially the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee (JDC), coordinate relief efforts to aid survivors" - coordinated?
  • Fixed typo.

Good work, supporting as these comments are generally pretty minor. Hog Farm _Talk 04:51, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

• Thanks for your support! (t · c) buidhe 20:28, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Support from Gog the Mild

• "a formerly Ottoman city" Link "Ottoman".
  • done
• "that targeted Jews per se". Optional: as this is the English Wikipedia, perhaps "per se" → 'as such'? If you prefer not to, use a Wiktionary link.
  • I feel like I am more likely to say "per se" than "as such", but a wiktionary link has been added.
• "along with that of neighboring communities". "that" → 'those'.
  • Done
• "The Greek-speaking Romaniotes are the oldest Jewish community in Europe". We aren't actually told who the Romaniotes are.
• "Many Ladino-speaking Sephardim settled in the Ottoman Empire" Likewise "Sephardim" and "Ladino".
• "After the establishment of the monarchy". When?
  • Clarified
• "small numbers of Ashkenazim from Central Europe". "Ashkenazim"?
  • The definition of Sephardim is Jews originally from Spain, Romaniotes are Greek-speaking Jews native to Greece, and Ashkhenazim are the Jews native to central Europe so I'm not sure what more would help to add here?

Yes, I know, how about telling the reader? Plus "Ladino".

OK, added some clarification

• "the first centuries CE". Suggest 'the early centuries CE', to avoid confusion with "the first century CE".
  • done
• "the majority of Greek Jews, around 50,000". From what total? Move this up from the end of the section. Or move the Salonika bit down.
  • Rewritten
• "under Italian influence". What does this mean?
  • Many islands were under Italian rule at different times during their history and the Jews who lived there often spoke Italian.

You should probably assume that I know the answers to questions like this, but am asking on behalf of a hypothetical reader. So this imaginary reader would be thinking "What does that mean? That they watch Italian films and eat pasta?"

OK, added some clarification

• "as a result of new territorial acquisitions". Delete "new".
  • done

• "most famously Mordechai Frizis, a Greek colonel." Is "Greek" not redundant?
  • removed
• "Germany joined the war and occupied all of mainland Greece by the end of the month." This implies that non-mainland Greece remained unoccupied.
  • Crete was not occupied until May; I'm not sure about the other islands.

Much to my surprise, I can't find a source that actually states that the Greek islands were occupied! Perhaps add 'and Crete by the end of May'?

Done

• "Greece was partitioned into different occupation zones". "different" seems redundant.
  • removed
• "program sending more than 100,000 Greek refugees westward". Were they deliberately expelled, or did they flee of their own accord as a by product of Bulgarisation?
  • The source indicates some of both, in that Bulgarian policies were intended to cause this flight
• "In 1943, parts of eastern Macedonia switched from the German to the Bulgarian occupation zone, but Bulgaria did not permanently annex the region." Did this non-annexation apply just to eastern Macadonia or to all of the Bulgarian-occupied territory?
  • All of Bulgarian-occupied Greece was annexed to Bulgaria, but returned to Greece after the war. What the source is saying is that the Greek collaborationist policy was successful in its own terms, since it managed to avoid territorial losses in the long term. I've removed this clause since it seems to be confusing.
• "Salonica Jewish community council." Should that be upper case Cs?
  • No, as I don't know what the formal name of this organization was.
• "a "Jewish problem" in Greece—the term was not a part of prewar discourse in Greece". "in Greece ... in Greece". Maybe 'prewar Greek discourse' for variety?
  • Done
• "and reviving the EEE". Which would be what?
  • It's mentioned a few paragraphs earlier that this is the National Union of Greece, a far-right association. Would additional clarification be helpful here?

No, I probably took a break and forgot about the earlier mention.

• "Jews were overrepresented among the victims." Optional: "the" → 'these'.
  • Done
• "After this registration". What registration?
  • Clarified that this refers to the roundup in the previous sentence
• "Some tried to escape, but the Germans shot others in retaliation". I assume that those who tried to escape were also shot. Were others also shot in these cases, or only when their fellows actually escaped?
  • Correct, the source says that revenge shootings happened after successful escapes. It does not say anything about unsuccessful escapes. Reworded

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:47, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

• Thanks for your comments! (t · c) buidhe 22:43, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• "Greek Jews living in Paris, Lyons, and Marseilles were deported in 1942". Deported to Greece?
  • No, to Auschwitz
• "Historian Christopher Browning argued that". You use the past tense, did he subsequently change his mind?
  • Fixed
• "was interned in Vienna from May 1941 and January 1942". I don't understand this. Was he detained twice, or should "and" be 'to'?
  • correct, I meant "to"
• "to ward off Bulgarian aspirations". Possibly a brief mention somewhere as to what these were?
  • Clarified
• "almost all Jewish-owned property was resold, stolen, or nationalized". Why "resold", rather than 'sold'?
  • To me "reselling" emphasizes that the sale was not for the benefit of the original property owner and they were not entitled to the proceeds of the sale.

That meaning is not in Wictionary ("To sell again.") nor a couple of other dictionaries I checked. I suggest that if you want to get your larger meaning across you spell it out.

OK, done

• "In less than a month, 97 percent of the Jews in the Bulgarian occupation zone were murdered;[84] none survived the deportation." I suspect that by the last four words you mean 'none of those deported survived.'
  • Reworded according to the suggestion
• "notified the prime minister of the Hellenic State" What is "the Hellenic State"?
  • The Greek collaborationist government. Rewrite to avoid this term which may be unfamiliar.
• "continue to operate the businesses to new ownership". Either 'to transfer the businesses to new ownership' or 'under new ownership'.
  • Done
• "and imprisoned in prearranged locations." Optional: I am not sure that this adds anything.
  • removed

• "such as timing". Of what?
  • Deportations
• "did not execute the order". What order?
  • To deport the Jews on the island
• "All of Greece was recaptured from Axis occupation by November 1944." I assume that this is missing the word 'mainland'.
  • Correct
• "The survivors were sharply divided" What was sharp about this division?
  • Fleming speaks of "tremendous divisions" because survivors could not understand each others' experiences. According to her the most striking rift was between those who had survived the camps, versus those who hadn't
• "In November 1944, the Greek government immediately annulled the Aryanization law". Either give a little explanation or delete "immediately".
  • Done
• "or on cement floors". Delete or rephrase.
  • I don't see what's wrong with that phrase?

There is nothing wrong with it, but I am sure that one could accurately replace "on concrete floors" with on wooden floors, on the bare ground, in ruined buildings, in hedgerows, in olive groves etc. No doubt they suffered many other discomforts and indignities. Why pick this one example out?

Removed

• Could there be a brief in line explanation of White Terror.
  • Reworded
• "which is considered higher than". "is"? Surely 'in 20XX was', or just 'was'.
  • The source says "Many scholars relate the gap of this unwanted memory to the fact that antisemitism in Greece is more widespread than probably in all pre- 2004 members of the European Union". I try to maintain the slight uncertainty in the wording, considering that antisemitism unlike the length of my finger cannot necessarily be measured with 100% precision and different estimates might come up with slightly different results.

I have issues with the use of the present tense. No doubt it was true at the point in time when it was measured, but how can we know if the same would be true if remeasured today. Or tomorrow. Hence my suggested amendments.

Changed to past tense

Gog the Mild (talk) 20:52, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• Hi Buidhe, I am assuminng that I am waiting for you to address my fourth and fifth points above. Ping me if I am mistaken. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:36, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

  Gog the Mild I apologize for the confusion. These points are addressed at the reply to your query about Ashkhenazim, seeking input as to what clarification would be helpful to add given that the definitions of the Jewish diaspora groupings is already given in the text. (t · c) buidhe 12:44, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Excellent stuff. A couple of come backs from me above. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:15, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Buidhe ? Gog the Mild (talk) 21:00, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Sorry! I managed to miss your comments but I should have addressed everything now. (t · c) buidhe 07:56, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Comments by Catlemur

• This is completely optional, but there is an article on τηε Greek Jewish participation in the resistance to the Axis occupation which features multiple photos Greek Jewish resistance fighters. According to the article which cites Bowman, the second guy from the right in this photo is Salvator Bakolas, a Greek jew. So you might consider including it in the article.--Catlemur (talk) 07:05, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
  • Added, thanks for the tip! (t · c) buidhe 08:53, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.