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Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Navy of the Independent State of Croatia

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Hawkeye7 (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 19:20, 13 December 2020 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Navy of the Independent State of Croatia edit

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Navy of the Independent State of Croatia (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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This article is about the very small "navy" of the Axis puppet state, the Independent State of Croatia, which operated between April 1941 and the end of WWII. Due to strict limitations imposed by the Italians, who thought of the Adriatic has their own, it initially had only a riverine flotilla, which included a couple of Yugoslav river monitors I have brought to FA. After the Italians threw in the towel in September 1943, the Germans transferred a few largish sea-going ships to them, but there was the ever-present danger of their crews defecting the Partisans, so after most of the larger vessels were sunk, the Germans brought the crews ashore. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:10, 10 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review
Removed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:11, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Other images OK for copyright. (t · c) buidhe 11:03, 10 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - pass edit

  • Wikilink Muller
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:06, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Put Naval Records Club 1968 in title case, to match the others
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:06, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sources all look to be reliable (I gave Muller some extra attention, as there's a good deal of crappy publishing about the Wehrmacht floating around, but he has excellent credentials and has been published by many publishers of high repute, including at least one university press in the States)
Yes, he's a bit of a star in a sometimes pretty ordinary field, his contribution to Germany and the Second World War makes him stand above many others. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:06, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Germans disarmed the remaining vessels and sent the crews to Zagreb where they formed a special unit for service on land." - Close paraphrasing here. The only difference between this and the source is the use of remaining vs other
Varied. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:06, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Google Books link for Thomas & Mikulan is a 404 deadlink
Removed, I can't find a preview version. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:06, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • What is Niehorster's credentials? Are they enough to get past WP:SPS for that website? (Struck, Niehorster's good credentials have been pointed out to me elsewhere)
  • Unsure where the date of 2013 for Niehorster is coming from. The page itself has a last updated date of either January 3, 2005 or March 1, 2005 (I'm not sure if DMY or MDY dates are in effect there.
I tend to use the year I last checked it as the year, as many webpages don't have a date last updated on them. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:22, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The River and River Traffic Command was headquartered in Sisak, at the confluence of the Kupa, Sava, and Odra rivers about 57 km (35 mi) southeast of Zagreb." - Geographic description is not found in the source. I'm personally of the opinion that coordinates are self-proving (like ISBNs), but citations are needed for more complex geographic descriptions like this one.
My view is that per WP:WTC#When a source or citation may not be needed and WP:BLUE, the description of the location of Sisak does not require a citation. Per the former, "Material that someone familiar with a topic (ie Croatian geography), including laypersons, recognizes as true" thus, anyone can look at a publically available map is see that this is the distance between Sisak and Zagreb and that it is located at the confluence of the three rivers. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:22, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Understandable, striking comment. My response to the recent ACR criticisms was probably to crack down too hard. Hog Farm Bacon 04:26, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I checked all of the references I could, and they turned up clean except for the two little niggles above. Hog Farm Bacon 16:30, 10 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for taking a look at this, Hog Farm! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:06, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Indy beetle edit

  • The lead establishes the context of the formation of the Croat force following the dismemberment of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia following its invasion by the Axis. None of this is reflected in the body. A paragraph describing how the invasion of Yugoslavia led to the formation of the Croat puppet state would be nice, as well as the whole Axis-vs-Allies thing. If possible, some explanations for why the Germans even allowed an "independent" Croatia with its own armed forces would also be appreciated.
G'day Indy beetle, sorry this has taken so long, but I had lent my copy of Tomasevich to a mate. Have now added some material here, see what else you think needs adding? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:29, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The navy was initially formed with assets from the collapsed Royal Yugoslav Navy. What happened to this navy during the 1941 campaign might be of interest, especially if Croat separatists undermined its effectiveness or captured some of its vessels.
There really are no neutral sources that claim this. Yes, there were more Croats and Slovenes than Serbs in the navy, but few members of the Yugoslav forces really wanted to fight, and quickly realised how outmatched they were. I have added some additional detail about what happened during the invasion. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:29, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Her crew came under the influence of the Yugoslav Partisans, and were preparing to mutiny when the Germans intervened. Did this lead to arrests or dismissals?
Sources don't say. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:29, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The river monitor Bosna struck a mine in the same month Did this resulting in its sinking?
Yes, added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:29, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is "Re-organisation" really the best title for the subsection? "Wartime service" or something else seems more fitting.
Well, it was integrated into the Home Guard, but perhaps I could make it "Re-organisation and expansion" to match what happened? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:29, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we know anything about the funding of this force? Did the Croats provide the money or was it propped up by the Germans?
I believe the NDH had to fund it themselves, but haven't got a source that specifies this for the navy. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:29, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Germans disarmed the remaining vessels and transferred the crews to Zagreb where they formed a special unit for service on land. Was this unit still technically a part of the RMNDH? Did it become a part of the Croat army, or German army? What happened to it?
Apparently still part of the navy, no sources explain its fate. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:29, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Under the commanders section, it says Kontraadmiral Nikola Steinfl served until May 1945. Yet the rest of the article gives the impression that the navy was disbanded in December 1944.
I think this has been clarified now? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:29, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Might this provide some info which we do not already know?
It is possible, I have recently ordered several books by Freivogel that might add details here and there, and will incorporate them before this goes to FAC. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:05, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tomasvich seems to say on page 31 that part of the reason that the Croats would cede to Italian demands for domination over the Adriatic is that the Italians would agree to protect the Croatian coast. This could be made more explicit in this article.

-Indy beetle (talk) 04:15, 11 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done. There were a lot of machinations between the Italians and the Ustase for years before the war, so I don't want to go into too much detail on it, but have added this info. I reckon I might be done addressing your queries, Indy beetle. Let me know what you think? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:29, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm satisfied with the changes; supporting promotion. -Indy beetle (talk) 02:43, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild edit

Placeholder. Could you ping me once Indy Beetle's comments have been substantively addressed. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:20, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I reckon it's ready for you, Gog the Mild. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:31, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • A slightly long opening sentence.
Have changed this up considerably, see what you think? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:36, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and comprised two former Royal Yugoslav Navy river monitors (Sava and Bosna, which had been scuttled during the invasion and later recovered), two river gunboats – Ustaša and Bosut, two river minelayers – Zagreb and Zrinski, and six motor boats." 1. Why are the monitors named in parentheses and the minelayers and gunboats not? 2. Your use of en dashes makes it look as if "Ustaša and Bosut, two river minelayers" is being sectioned out.
Terrible punctuation, not sure what I thought I was doing there. Any better now? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:36, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "each consisting of one monitor, one gunboat, one minelayer and three motor boats, and the flotilla flagship, the river tugboat Vrbas." Each included the Vrbas?
Another very clunky sentence. Fixed I hope. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:36, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Caption: "Cover of Hrvatski krugoval magazine from 17 October 1943 with a member of the Navy." Óptional': "with" → 'featuring'.
  • "imposed on the RMNDH by the Treaty of Rome". Should that be 'the second Treaty of Rome'?
Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:36, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And that's all I have. Nice one. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:04, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your review and suggestions Gog! All done I reckon. Some doozies there... Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:36, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hey, it managed to make me feel good about my grammar, and that is difficult! Yeah, much better. Supporting. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:55, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by CPA-5 edit

I claim this seat please ping me when Gog's comments are addressed. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 14:44, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

G'day CPA-5, you're up. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:40, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Will do it tomorrow (CET). Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 22:42, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link World War II (done), Agreement on Military Matters Pertaining to Coastal Areas (not done, this is a potential subsection of the Treaties of Rome (1941) article, which is a stub), Coast and Maritime Traffic Command (not done, not independently notable), River and River Traffic Command (not done, not independently notable), Central Adriatic Naval Command (not done, not independently notable), South Adriatic Naval Command (not done, not independently notable), Black Sea (done), Russian (done) and Ukrainian (done).
  • confluence of the Kupa, Sava, and Odra rivers about 57 km (35 mi) southeast of Zagreb --> "confluence of the Kupa, Sava, and Odra rivers about 57 kilometres (35 mi) southeast of Zagreb"
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:21, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Croatian government hoped that --> "The Croatian Government hoped that"?
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:21, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • It also agreed not create any naval units --> "It also agreed not to create any naval units"?
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:21, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Just some minor things nothing much here. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 17:16, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks so much for taking a look, CPA-5. See what you think? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:21, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Looks good to me, support. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 14:43, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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