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Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Henry II of England

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted Nick-D (talk) 10:49, 27 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Henry II of England edit

Nominator(s): Hchc2009 (talk)


I am nominating this article for A-Class review because Henry was a major war-time leader in medieval Europe. The article has been through GA review, and I'd like to take it ultimately onto FA. Hchc2009 (talk) 19:04, 17 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hawkeye7

Henry was a talented but bad tempered king with a queen who was more than a match for any subsequent ruler of England. (His mother was no slouch either.) The article is kind of long so I'll review a section at a time.

  • Lead:
    1. Henry was born to Geoffrey of Anjou and Matilda, who claimed the title of Empress from her first marriage. He became actively involved in his mother's efforts to claim the throne of England . "born to" sounds weird; try "son of".
    2. And what do you mean by "claimed the title"? See was the Empress. Re-word.
    3. Henry's military expedition to England in 1153 led to King Stephen agreeing to a peace treaty in 1153 and Henry inheriting the kingdom on Stephen's death a year later. Repetition; remove "in 1153"
    4. Meanwhile, Henry undertook various legal reforms in both England and Normandy, establishing the basis for the future English Common Law, and reformed the royal finances and currency. "Reform" is over-used. Drop this whole sentence as it is covered in the last paragraph.
    5. Although Henry usually worked well with the local hierarchies of the Church, his desire to control and reform the relationship between the church in England led to conflict with his former friend Thomas Becket, the Archbishop of Canterbury. Too much verbiage for the lead. Consider: "Although Henry usually worked well with the Church, his desire for control and reform led to conflict with his former friend Thomas Becket, the Archbishop of Canterbury." On reflection, I think this would not be an accurate or adequate of the conflict with Becket. You'll need to re-word this.
    6. This controversy lasted for much of the 1160s and resulted in Becket's death in 1170, for which Henry was widely blamed. But only because he was guilty as hell. Delete "for which Henry was widely blamed".
    7. In 1173 Henry's then eldest son, Henry, usually known as "Young Henry", rebelled in protest at his treatment by Henry What do you mean "then eldest"? And delete "by Henry" which adds only confusion.
    8. despite numerous peace conferences and treaties no permanent peace was reached The idea of a permanent peace seems preposterous when we are talking about the Middle Ages. Delete this whole phrase.
  • "son of" done. Hchc2009 (talk) 07:40, 1 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Empress title - biographers aren't entirely clear how far she had a claim to this after the emperor died, but I've gone for "took" which still works I think. Hchc2009 (talk) 07:40, 1 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • The custom is to continue using the title after the death of one's husband, even after remarriage. Catherine Parr remained queen to the end of her days, despite remarriage, and took precedence over lesser lights who were married to men senior to her second husband. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:03, 1 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1153 removed.Hchc2009 (talk) 07:40, 1 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sentence removed. Hchc2009 (talk) 07:40, 1 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Changed as suggested. Hchc2009 (talk) 07:40, 1 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • He'd had one older son, who died v. young. I've tweaked the wording again to avoid confusion in the lead.Hchc2009 (talk) 07:40, 1 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • In other parts of France better arrangements were made; I've tweaked the wording slightly - see what you think.Hchc2009 (talk) 07:40, 1 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Early years (1133–49)
    1. Empress Matilda, so titled because of her first marriage to the Holy Roman Emperor. Please name the emperor.
    2. Anjou had been formed in 10th century and the Angevin rulers had attempted to extend their influence and power across France through careful marriages and political alliances for several centuries. Link Anjou for people who don't know where it it, and also Angevins. And "formed in 10th century" sounds wrong for some, probably grammatical, reason.
    3. Henry's mother, the Empress Matilda, We just said who she was in the previous sentence. Delete "Henry's mother,"
    4. Matilda was married at a young age to the Holy Roman Emperor; No need to link Holy Roman Emperor twice. Oh wait, I found him! He was hiding under the link. Just name him!
    5. accompanied by his uncle, Robert of Gloucester. we already said he was his uncle. Delete "by his uncle,"
    6. Although this form of arrangement was common What arrangement?
    7. Henry had a passionate desire to rebuild his control of the territories that his grandfather, Henry I, had once controlled. Repetition here. Re-phrase.
    8. The "map of England" also shews Wales and part of Scotland.
  • Early reign (1150–62)
    1. Henry was supported in the north and east of England by the forces of Ranulf of Chester and Hugh Bigod The map shews them in the north and west.
    2. shortly before Easter And that was when in 1153?
    3. Note 7 is a bit out of place. You have used the notes (correctly) to add historiographical information but here there is actual part of the narrative. Move it into the text.
  • 1. The map shows Ranulf of Chester and Robert of Leicester in the north-west I think; Hugh was in the east, but isn't featured on the political maps I could find!
  • 2. Done.
  • 3. Done. Hchc2009 (talk) 06:57, 7 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Government, family and household
    1. Henry owned a greater proportion of France than any ruler since the Carolingians I think I know what you are trying to say, but this is a bit awkward; after all, the King of France was er King of France. Re-phrase.
    2. historian John Joliffe link here. Unlink below.
    3. ditto for John Gillingham
    4. Henry's mother, Matilda, played an important role in his early life and exercised influence for many years later. How unusual.
    5. Note 21 is not a note; suggest incorporating into the text
    6. The first half of Note 25 should be moved into the text
    7. a significant increase in long-term inflation Do you have an estimated inflation rate?
  • 1. I've had a go - see what you think.
  • 2. Done.
  • 3. I think the earlier link is in the right place for Gillingham?
  • 4. It's unusual for the period; typically royal children were removed from their mothers at quite an early age, and we don't have much evidence for their mothers advising on policy etc. later.
  • 5. I've kept it as a note, since its explaining an archaic historical viewpoint; the historiography section picks it up in more detail.
  • 6. Done.
  • 7. There are some around, but they all require some explanation that would feel out of place here; I don't have an easy x% sadly!Hchc2009 (talk) 07:24, 8 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Later reign (1162–75)
    1. Move note 27 into the text
    2. Young Henry receiving England and Normandy, Richard the Duchy of Aquitaine, and Geoffrey Brittany. punctuation required here.
  • 1. I'm still of the view that it makes for a better note...
  • 2. Done (I can be a little sparse on the verbs sometimes!). Hchc2009 (talk) 07:27, 8 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

All in all, great work. Wish all articles were like this. Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:41, 1 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks for the review - much appreciated! Hchc2009 (talk) 07:27, 8 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support All my concerns have been addressed. Hawkeye7 (talk) 12:16, 8 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. Please check the edit summaries. - Dank (push to talk)

  • "Henry enjoyed warfare, hunting and action;": What kind of "action"?
  • "Late in his reign, one of his court is said to have worn this device on his tunic;" The sentences before and after seemed stronger, so I removed this bit. Feel free to re-insert it, but it would be nice to know who wore the device and why that was significant. - Dank (push to talk) 23:08, 9 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "it increasingly appeared as though the English Church was considering an eventual peace treaty.": Who was considering a peace treaty?
  • "Henry did homage to Louis for Normandy": I don't think your readers will understand what you're saying here.
  • "At around this time, however, Henry was also probably secretly planning his marriage": What does "however" mean? What's in opposition to what?
  • No sentence of mine is complete without a spare "however", Dank! However, I've removed it. Hchc2009 (talk) 07:23, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the marriage was an insult, it ran counter to feudal practice and it threatened the inheritance of Louis and Eleanor's two daughters,": nonparallel, in the sense that "insult" is an opinion (unless you attribute it to Louis), and the other two in the series don't seem to be opinions (in the same sense).
    • Just occurred to me that you might have meant something like "the marriage was an insult, in the sense that ...". If so, twiddle with it. - Dank (push to talk) 11:32, 13 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Neufmarchė": I'm not familiar with that diacritic. An acute accent, or none, would probably be better. - Dank (push to talk) 13:33, 10 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Turns out the French aren't familiar with it either... I've fixed it! Hchc2009 (talk) 07:23, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Images (oppose for now):

Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 10:21, 13 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Have gone back through the files - hopefully those changes are correct! Hchc2009 (talk) 07:16, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support: a well referenced, illustrated and written article. I made a few minor tweaks (and drank three cups of tea while reading it!). I also have a couple of minor comments/suggestions, but they do not impact upon my support for A-class:

  • this sounded a little awkward to me: "In England, Henry initially ruled through his father's former advisers whom he brought with him from Normandy..."
  • this sounded a little informal to me: "significantly during Henry's reign, largely thanks to Richard's efforts in the late 1170s". Perhaps replace "thanks" with "due";
  • not sure about the word "unfortunately" here: "Unfortunately Henry's family was divided by rivalries and violent hostilities". It could possibly be construed as a value judgement and as such might be best just to remove it;
  • inconsistent capitalisation: "Although Henry usually worked well with the local hierarchies of the Church" v. "Henry's relationship with the church varied considerably" (a few potential examples);
  • inconsistent capitalisation "the Norman Church also intervened to try to assist" v. "despite efforts by the Norman church to";
  • the duplicate link checker tool indicates some examples of possible overlink: "Henry I of England" (in the lead); Vexin; Theobold V, Count of Blois; Henry I, Count of Champagne. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 22:11, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Cheers! I'm travelling until next Sunday now, but will deal with the above on return. Many thanks for all the inputs from everyone above, Hchc2009 (talk) 11:27, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree about the Henry I overlink and fixed it. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 02:54, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments -- Heh, I see by the edit history that I'm listed fourth in contributions to this article! However that's mainly been in the nature of vandal control so I think I can be fairly objective here... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 02:54, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • General: With all the numbered names around you may want to join them with non-breaking spaces before this gets to FAC, however I'm not fussed about it for ACR.
  • Lead: I was thinking "Cold War" should be in lower case here since it's a general rather than specific term; as you reference the specific one in the main body, that second instance should certainly be capitalised -- FWIW.
  • Appearance and personality -- I'm not sure about this section where it is since you're sticking it in the middle of an obviously chronological sequence of other sections. On the other hand I admit I'm not certain of the best spot for it. Any thoughts of just integrating these characteristics elsewhere?
  • I couldn't find a better place to put it (but agree with your sense that it isn't in a great location) Hchc2009 (talk) 07:49, 26 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • France: Brittany, Toulouse and the Vexin -- "The precise events and decisions at these gatherings were disputed by contemporary chroniclers". Do you mean that in Henry's day the chroniclers openly argued with each other about the results of the meetings, or that today we can see that their accounts are inconsistent?
  • Sorry, mate, still not sure about this. I gather from the latest change to "The precise events and decisions at these gatherings are disputed by contemporary chroniclers" that the chroniclers weren't arguing about it back then, but their accounts don't appear to us to be consistent with each other. If that's the case, I would reword to "Contemporary chroniclers' accounts of the events and decisions at these gatherings are inconsistent" or "do not agree" or some such. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:11, 26 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • No prob's - have gone with your suggestion, Hchc2009 (talk) 09:48, 26 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Cool, no further concerns... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:06, 26 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • That's it for now, along with a copyedit up to the end of Law -- generally looking very good. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 02:54, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Economy and finance
    • "a team of royal officials called the chamber" reads a bit oddly to me; if it's been given a special name, shouldn't that name be either capitalised or in inverted commas?
    • "a significant increase in both long-term inflation and trade" -- did both inflation and trade increase in the long term, or only inflation? If the former, should read "a significant long-term increase in both inflation and trade".
  • Okay, so having completed my copyedit I'm pretty satisfied with structure, prose, and detail (whew, I thought he'd never kick the bucket)...!
  • Happy to rely on Grandiose's image check.
  • Sources and referencing look okay; I haven't performed a spotcheck as I know you had one for Stephen, King of England in September last year -- that may not be recent enough to get a waiver at FAC level but at ACR it'll do me...
  • So, all up, a great effort -- just let me know about the points raised above. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:06, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ian, I'll do a spotcheck again when this hits FAC ... since I may be the only person around with most of the sources easily available, but I did check while I was doing my GA review and found nothing there... Ealdgyth - Talk 12:34, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tks Ealdgyth, that would be excellent (speaking as both a FAC reviewer and a FAC delegate)...! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 02:39, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • Why on earth would Henry promise to avoid cathedrals? Henry reaffirmed that he would avoid the English cathedrals
  • The source is unclear; possibly to avoid the bishops having to openly take sides, possibly just because the army would have caused significant damage to the chapter lands etc. Hchc2009 (talk) 07:49, 26 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • This should probably be rephrased a bit to clarify that the court was based at Caen and did not handle just the revenues from Caen. He also operated an exchequer court that heard cases relating to royal revenues at Caen

Otherwise nicely done.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 17:08, 19 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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