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Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Capture of Wakefield

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Zawed (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 09:20, 10 October 2019 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Capture of Wakefield

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Nominator(s): Harrias (talk)

Capture of Wakefield (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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The capture of Wakefield, in Yorkshire, featured two of the more prominent commanders from the First English Civil War. Sir Thomas Fairfax, after nearly getting himself captured in this engagement, went on to become the commander-in-chief of parliament's New Model Army which effectively won the war. George Goring was taken prisoner at Wakefield, had some success at Marston Moor, but ultimately failed in southwest England, and escaped to France claiming ill-health. The capture of Wakefield itself was significant for the scale of the victory, and the number of prisoners Fairfax was able to take, but territoriality was of little consequence.

This is the first of the Civil War engagements that I have brought to A-class review since the Sieges of Taunton back in 2015, but hopefully the first of many, so all comments will be gratefully received, not just for this article, but to help me form and refine the others. Harrias talk 10:25, 28 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:A-Miraculous-Victory.jpg is tagged as lacking author info and needs a US PD tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:30, 28 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks Nikkimaria. I knew this image was going to be raised as an issue, but I wasn't quite sure what was best to do with it, and so I figured I'd wait for the review! Would the correct author be Ferdinando Lord Fairfax (as the writer of the words), Edward Husbands (as the person who had it published), or the person who took the photograph? I'm guessing possibly the first, but I'm unsure? Harrias talk 21:04, 28 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Gog the Mild

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I assessed this at GAN and thought well of it. Some useful expansion since then.

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:33, 28 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's all fine. Thanks. I feel a little petty writing this, but the last point - the only one preventing an enthusiastic "Support" - is a real sticking point for me. A2 includes "and does not go into unnecessary detail" and I reckon that does. Let's see if others feel differently, or if we can form a consensus. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:44, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No worries. We're here to refine and improve the articles; getting a little 'A-class disc' or a 'Featured star' is just a happy by-product. Let's wait and see what anyone else says. From your personal point of view, would you be any happier with a shorter version, something like "By the end of 1644, an alliance between the English parliament and the Scottish Covenanters delivered most of the north of England for parliament." Or do you just feel it should be omitted, end of? Harrias talk 13:55, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Omitted. Although I would be happier with that; it is less tangential than currently. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:19, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, sorry, that was my ambiguous wording again! I should have said "would you be happy with", rather than "happier with", so your direct answer is what I was after, thanks. Harrias talk 14:34, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild (talk) 11:11, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Chewing this over, if you are happy to boil the two sentences in question down to 'By the end of 1644, an alliance between the English parliament and the Scottish Covenanters delivered most of the north of England for parliament.' then it is probably not 'unfocused' enough for me to legitimately oppose. So if you want to do that, I will then support. Mind, I think that 'By the end of 1644, most of the north of England had been captured by parliamentarian forces.' or something similar would be even better. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:26, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've had a look over a variety of battle Featured articles, some of your own, and some others. It's clear looking through them that consensus sits on your side, and reading through this article again, the mention of the Covenanters in particularly does seem excessive. I have just realised that those two sentences included Fairfax at Marston Moor, so I was considering: "By the end of 1644, aided by Fairfax's decisive victory at Marston Moor, most of the north of England had been captured by parliamentarian forces." Harrias talk 21:00, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I like an editor who uses my articles as a yardstick of good practice. I doubt their judgement, but I like them. Yes, that last suggestion is just the sort of thing I would expect. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:07, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ha. Done. Harrias talk 06:10, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Fine work. Supporting. Gog the Mild (talk) 09:49, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by CPA-5

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Hello Harrias I'm happy to hear about your return in nominating articles. Of course in October the quarterly reviewing awards will take place and I do have some eyes on some reviews including yours. If you do not mind I'd probably have a review tomorrow due the last days of the drive and other nominations who are waiting longer than this one. Do not worry I'll get this one probably tomorrow. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 17:02, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • @CPA-5: All that graph shows is that 19 years ago, there was very little difference between the two, and that they were trending towards a merge. I maintain that there is no consensus to change. Harrias talk 09:47, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • returned south, his wife, Henrietta Maria (formally known as Queen Mary) Why formally? In her article, it states that she still was married with the King?
    • As you will have seen, the Wikipedia article is at Henrietta Maria of France, she is commonly referred to in sources as Henrietta Maria, and she did not self identify as Queen Mary. I wouldn't have included it at all, except that a few (mostly contemporary) sources do use Queen Mary, and so I felt it provided useful context. Harrias talk 21:13, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • and reestablished the West Riding of Yorkshire for parliament American reestablished.
  • Royalist outpost at Stanley, roughly 2.5 miles (4.0 km) from Wakefield Could you round the unnecessary nought.
  • he led a counterattack on horseback American counterattack.
  • The horse were split into eight troops Is it me or is the word "horse" a singular and the verb should be was?
    • "horse plural: cavalry" This is a minefield. Short answer is that "were" is fine. Long answer is that either "were" or "was" could be used depending on the specific meaning being conveyed. In this case, I think that "were" is more appropriate, to account for the physical splitting of the group of people. Harrias talk 21:13, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • barricade to clear enough room for the cavalry to break through Merge "break through".

I think that was anything I've got for now. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 18:03, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your review; I've responded to each point in turn above, though I have to say that I have disagreed with most of the suggestions. Harrias talk 21:13, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Just a short note to any reviewers that I am going away for a few days, so won't be able to respond to any further comments until Sunday at the earliest. Harrias talk 17:50, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by PM

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This article looks in good shape. I have a few comments:

  • just be careful about the use of "foot" here, as it is British Army jargon. The use of "foot" is a bit of assumed knowledge regarding another name for infantry in the British context of the era, and infantry are referred to as that, as foot, and some as musketeers. Are they all the same thing in this context, or are some of the infantry only equipped with edged weapons? Suggest adding (foot) after infantry, just using infantry throughout, or some other formulation.
  • suggest "under the command of his father, Lord Fairfax, Sir Thomas Fairfax..."
  • do we know who commanded the dragoons?
  • is there a breakdown of how many of the Parliamentary infantry were musketeers (assuming they weren't all musketeers)?
  • suggest moving the description of Wakefield from where it is to the point in the narrative when the Parliamentarians first arrive there and before the defenders man the hedges.
  • was Goring the only Royalist commander?
    • There is a whole list of so-called "commanders" who were taken prisoner, though the term seems to be used synonymously with "officer". There were certainly other Royalist commanders present, not least Goring's deputy Mackworth. In fact, looking through, one sources states "the royalist garrison in the town comprised General Goring, Sergeant Major-general Mackworth, Lord Goring, and other celebrated commanders" Harrias talk 10:04, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I assume Northgate is to the north of Wakefield, but where is/was Warrengate?
  • suggest "Despite his illness"→"Whatever his incapacity", as we are assuming one rather than the other by using illness. This also applies to the lead, where the illness version is also used.
  • suggest "though both Goring's father, the Earl of Norwich,"
  • what did the dragoons do during the battle?
  • suggest "The commander of the infantry ignored Fairfax, and asked one of the two prisoners that Fairfax held for instructions."→"Fairfax was holding two prisoners, but the infantry commander did not recognise him and asked one of prisoners for instructions." if that is right?
  • Market Place→marketplace, unless it is the proper name of the location
    • The main source uses "Market Place", suggesting it is the proper name for the location, but Google Maps doesn't think it exists any more. I want to have a quick look around some others, if I'm not convinced, then I'll soften it as suggested. Harrias talk 10:32, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "he fired at them with the cannon and his musketeers"→"his musketeers and the cannon opened fire"
  • suggest extending the piping of Sir Thomas Fairfax in the infobox
  • the sources seem reliable and of acceptable quality, although I am left wondering what more scholarly sources on the civil war might say about this event.
    • I agree, but I haven't been able to find anything from more scholarly sources relating to the capture, at least not as more than a passing mention. There is nothing obvious from either the The Yorkshire Archaeological & Historical Society or the Wakefield Historical Society, nor from searches on a couple of journal collections that I have access to. Harrias talk 10:04, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's all I have. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:43, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've initially responded to and changed some of the more obvious ones. I'm still pretty tired from my travels, so I'm going to look at some of the others later when I can concentrate better! Harrias talk 10:04, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Peacemaker67: I've responded to each of your points, though there are a couple that I want to look into a little further, and a couple I've queried. Harrias talk 12:28, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
A couple of responses on pretty minor issues. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:29, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Peacemaker67: And responded to those points. Harrias talk 09:19, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
All good, supporting. Nice job on this. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:24, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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