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Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2022 February 21

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February 21 edit

Template:Sheikh Hasina sidebar edit

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template(s) or module(s) below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was delete one and keep the other. After deletion, I will move the longer title to the shorter title. Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 15:18, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Unnecessary sidebars where a navbox, Template:Sheikh Hasina, already covers the subject. The odd thing is that the first sidebar transcludes the sidebar with her married surname of Wazed. Not sure why it was created because it's a waste of space, but overall, the sidebar is very OR-ish, and Synth that mass complies a majority of unrelated links. I've made the necessary additions to the navbox and will transclude it at some point. But these sidebars are not needed. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 23:49, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete both Not really part of a "series" about her. The navbox {{Sheikh Hasina}} exists and is a much more useful way of navigating between these articles. If these articles were part of a "series" the sidebar should be in all of them. Nigej (talk) 07:26, 14 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep one, delete the other The sidebar contains important information about a sitting head of government and can be used to easily navigate articles regarding Sheikh Hasina and her premiership by someone who may not be learned in the intricacies of Wikipedia. Both templates appear to have identical content therefore it would be appropriate to delete one of them and retain the other. I disagree with Nigej's assertion that If these articles were part of a "series" the sidebar should be in all of them. If you observe the Narendra Modi sidebar you'll note that the 2014 Indian election is mentioned but the sidebar does not appear on that page. The Sheikh Hasina template is no different.—AMomen88 (talk) 15:29, 19 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    However {{Narendra Modi series}} appears in 37 articles and these in 2. Nigej (talk) 15:46, 19 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Also, the more directly related article to Hasina, I've added it to her navbox. The sidebar is not needed. The Modi sidebar has more articles related to his life and tenure in office without a SYNTH collection of links. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 15:26, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Nigej I have just added the sidebar to more pages regarding Sheikh Hasina.—AMomen88 (talk) 16:37, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
WikiCleanerMan I recognise your point, but Sheikh Hasina is a sitting head of government whose page warrants a sidebar. Joe Biden, Justin Trudeau, Boris Johnson, Emmanuel Macron, Vladimir Putin, Jair Bolsonaro, Imran Khan, Andrés Manuel López Obrador, Mario Draghi, Xi Jinping are all sitting heads of government who have a sidebar just to name a few. All these sidebars have varying degrees of detail. I see no reason why Hasina's should be deleted when the convention seems to be that sitting heads of government would have a sidebar. A casual viewer of Wikipedia will not know what a navbox is let alone have the knowledge required to use it. The sidebar appears prominently on her article and is much more easily accessible.—AMomen88 (talk) 16:37, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Worldbruce: and @Vinegarymass911:
Then there needs to be a significant change. If we can agree to keep the sidebar then the one that should be kept should simply be named Sheikh Hasina sidebar. Not her married surname of Wazed as we use the common name for people. Her common name is just Sheikh Hasina. But all the information from the Wazed sidebar should be moved to the former because it's an unnecessary waste of space and a ridiculous form of transclusion. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 16:55, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Primefac (talk) 09:18, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

Template:Ancestors of John Gielgud edit

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template(s) or module(s) below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was delete. ✗plicit 13:44, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Genealogy of John Gielgud. Was added there and reverted as being unreferenced. More family history stuff than encyclopedic content. Nigej (talk) 12:05, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Primefac (talk) 09:18, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete. If the template was added to the article but was removed by other editors, there is not much left for us to do here. The article in question is a FA and as such, if this was wanted, it would have been used by now. Gonnym (talk) 08:33, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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Template:COVID-19 pandemic data/India/Tamil Nadu medical cases by district edit

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template(s) or module(s) below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was delete. No prejudice against userfication if someone wants to keep the historical data or continue updating it for use elsewhere. Primefac (talk) 11:59, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Unused and time-sensitive data outdated; unlikely to be updated or used. Jroberson108 (talk) 06:15, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete: My reason is the same as the layed by the nominator. ItcouldbepossibleTalk 06:36, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't know what all this is about but I will use the Nepal templates again when I get back to updating COVID-19 pandemic in Nepal. If that is sufficient to keep, please do. I put a lot of work into it. Usedtobecool ☎️ 07:36, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete An unnecessary level of detail, even if was maintained and updated. Nigej (talk) 08:21, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    That's not for a TFD to decide. Usedtobecool ☎️ 08:40, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    It's part of this discussion, which is regarding if this template should be kept. Gonnym (talk) 09:43, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    No. TFD has no jurisdiction over what's WP:DUE in the mainspace. That's a concern to raise at the article talk page if and when it is included in the article. Usedtobecool ☎️ 16:40, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Surely that's the whole point. These are not in mainspace, they're in template space and as such they are discussed here. If they were in mainspace they'd be discussed somewhere else. Nigej (talk) 16:44, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I did not object to the template being discussed here. I objected to the specific argument that it should be deleted because it contains "an unnecessary level of detail", because that's irrelevant as far as TFD is concerned. The level of detail is not one of the criteria for deletion of a template via TFD. Usedtobecool ☎️ 17:03, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    However, as I said, this is article content and if it has no realistic prospect of being usable in an article, then it should be deleted. That is a relatively common argument here. Nigej (talk) 18:06, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    As I said, I intend to use it again when I get back to updating the main article. WP:TFD appears to allow for a possibility for future use. What's the hurry? Usedtobecool ☎️ 17:06, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Please do not make up TfD rules. Gonnym (talk) 08:50, 22 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I am disengaging as we seem to have reached the point where edits are made solely to hurl personal attacks. I have made my arguments after reading the template and TFD guidelines, please consider them on their merit, and consider my bold !vote a keep for Template:COVID-19 pandemic data/Nepal medical cases by province and district and meh on the rest. Regards! Usedtobecool ☎️ 10:12, 22 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    The other issue is that this is article content and, if it's to be kept it, should be in an article, not in a template. Nigej (talk) 09:53, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I highly doubt this is the only template that contains COVID-19 data in the template namespace. If such data does not belong in the template namespace, there should be a centralised discussion about all such templates. Usedtobecool ☎️ 16:29, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, WP:NOTSTATS. Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 21:43, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

Template:THCCtablekey edit

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The result of the discussion was delete. ✗plicit 04:34, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Unused table legend. Gonnym (talk) 06:32, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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Template:WSCfinal edit

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The result of the discussion was delete. ✗plicit 04:35, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Unused sport table template. Gonnym (talk) 06:40, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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Template:Weather by years box edit

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The result of the discussion was delete. ✗plicit 04:35, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Unused sidebar with one link. Gonnym (talk) 06:41, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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Template:WikiProject Java/When graphical timeline edit

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The result of the discussion was delete. ✗plicit 04:35, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Unused timeline template. Gonnym (talk) 06:43, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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Template:COVID-19 pandemic tables edit

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The result of the discussion was delete. ✗plicit 04:35, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Unused and time-sensitive data outdated; unlikely to be updated or used. Jroberson108 (talk) 07:08, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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Template:COVID-19 pandemic data/California medical cases by county/style.css edit

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The result of the discussion was Delete; deleted as G7 by Izno (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT⚡ 06:05, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Unused and unlikely to be used. Jroberson108 (talk) 07:27, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete: As the original author of this stylesheet, I agree that it's no longer needed. Minh Nguyễn 💬 09:52, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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Template:Phnom Penh BRT Line 01 route edit

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The result of the discussion was delete. ✗plicit 11:59, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Bus routes in Phnom Penh. See Transport in Phnom Penh and Line 01 (Phnom Penh Bus Rapid Transit) etc. Clearly duplicates this information. Nigej (talk) 08:42, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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Template:COVID-19 pandemic data/Alaska medical cases by borough edit

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The result of the discussion was no consensus for Template:COVID-19 pandemic data/San Francisco Bay Area medical cases by county, delete the rest. ✗plicit 13:41, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Data on cases/deaths by individual county and other sub-state division in the United States. The ones listed here have not been updated for at least a year. Trying to maintain such detail for such small divisions is unlikely to be useful in an encyclopedia and trying to maintain it on a daily/weekly basis is not a sensible use of anyone's time. Nigej (talk) 10:01, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Nigej: Wisconsin has already been nominated above. Remove one from this or that. Jroberson108 (talk) 11:56, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I noticed after I'd nominated it, but forgot to remove it from this list. Cheers. removed now. Nigej (talk) 11:58, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep one: I've been updating Template:COVID-19 pandemic data/San Francisco Bay Area medical cases by county every day since it was created in May 2020, including just a couple hours ago. It doesn't appear that way from the template's history, because the template dynamically draws from tabular data on Commons via Module:Medical cases data. You must've caught me while I was making some changes to the module that broke the template. This template is used in COVID-19 pandemic in the San Francisco Bay Area, where it has been useful as a summary of the state of the nine-county region where the lockdowns started in the U.S. Minh Nguyễn 💬 10:37, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. Sorry I missed that one. Nigej (talk) 11:54, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Mxn: Maybe add "Updated" with a date to the footer so easier to tell the data's age? Jroberson108 (talk) 12:08, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Jroberson108: It's tricky because each of the counties update their dashboards with a different lag time. The template does add a citation with the date for each county, based on the last reported date, but otherwise the tabular data extension's Scribunto interface doesn't provide any information about when a table was last edited. Minh Nguyễn 💬 22:57, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete all except San Francisco: Ignoring San Francisco, all are unused except Boston and all have outdated time-sensitive data; unlikely to be updated or used. Jroberson108 (talk) 12:36, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete All: In the early stages of the pandemic, it was useful per location to update these when multiple persons assisted. As one of the creators of many of the templates, it was very time consuming to populate the data in a daily fashion. Since the data for most is out dated by six months to a year, it is unlikely that the gaps can be filled in from public health records. — Mr Xaero ☎️ 14:41, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Even if it could be updated, the question is whether that's a useful thing to do. We're not really in the stats business. Nigej (talk) 16:28, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In general, I agree. We should only keep tables that we can automate at least partially, whether using tabular data, Wikidata, or ad-hoc scripts. I don't think it's a question of whether we should maintain stats about the pandemic at all, because the infoboxes all have bits of these stats anyways. But the visualizations like Template:Interactive COVID-19 maps/Per capita confirmed cases are more effective for the kind of breakdown these tables are presenting anyways. Minh Nguyễn 💬 23:04, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Mxn: I could recall that there are at least two bots that can do automated updates for several countries but they usually have a lag of one to three days. A few months ago, Template:COVID-19 pandemic data was switched to automated updates. Regarding the templates that were nominated in this TfD, if there will be no way to automate the updates, it would be better to delete them. However, for medical cases charts, I could not think of a way to automate the updates. LSGH (talk) (contributions) 04:39, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@LSGH: Yes, there have been some bots based on global or national sources. However, more granular sources are not as straightforward. For example, in theory, the county-level tabular data that feeds into Template:COVID-19 pandemic data/San Francisco Bay Area medical cases by county can be updated automatically via a bot, but so far I've chosen to stick to semi-automated scripts that I kick off every night, because some county dashboards' APIs can be fickle and will break almost weekly without some level of attention. (This fact quickly killed off ambitious automated efforts like COVID Atlas.)

County-level statistics are only useful to the extent that they're used in articles and surrounded by adequate context. If any of these templates is still being maintained but is unused in the article namespace or only transcluded in a perfunctory manner, it should be replaced by tabular data at Wikimedia Commons, where it would be more clearly within the project scope and easily reusable.

 – Minh Nguyễn 💬 05:56, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Perhaps it is also possible to delete the other templates that can be found here because most of those templates have already become useless. Other templates were already nominated for deletion but medical cases charts such as Template:COVID-19 pandemic data/Austria medical cases chart and Template:COVID-19 pandemic data/Uganda medical cases chart were not yet included. I think that templates like those should also be nominated for deletion because most of those templates are already outdated. However, it would be better if there will be an appropriate alternative to deletion. LSGH (talk) (contributions) 16:49, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It's an issue because editors have chosen to create templates rather than adding the content to articles. The articles are likely to remain and the content would be in the edit history, even if the content was removed. Nigej (talk) 21:27, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Nigej: That probably explains why the related articles keep on running into PEIS issues. Case numbers no longer make sense nowadays and I do not know why they should still be updated manually. LSGH (talk) (contributions) 04:39, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@LSGH: I agree with deleting the time series templates, at least in their current form. If we keep the templates around, we should transition them to {{Graph:Lines}} like the ones at COVID-19 pandemic in the San Francisco Bay Area#Cases by county over time, because case numbers are less meaningful than a trend line. Otherwise, a bar chart focusing on the last several days is meaningless chart junk, except perhaps at the onset of a wave like Omicron.

Another consideration is that many of the sources used for these time series templates are not in fact time series. Many are based on sources that just record each day's cumulative reported case count, but the correct epidemiological practice would be to revise case totals from prior dates based on sample collection dates. For the San Francisco Bay Area, I made sure to use sources that revise historical data every day, potentially stretching back to the beginning of the pandemic. However, not every jurisdiction publishes data in such detail; without it, even a line graph representation would be misleading.

 – Minh Nguyễn 💬 06:07, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Mxn: I used to maintain several of those bar charts, but eventually, I just settled on a few templates that I should no longer be updating. The trend lines are far more presentable, they consume much less space, and they appear to be generated automatically. Maybe Template:Graph:Lines can be added into the relevant articles while the bar charts are taken out of use, after which they can be nominated for deletion. Regarding the case count, there are some countries that retroactively add data to previous dates, sometimes even data from several months ago are affected, but I do not think that it is practical to adjust those every time. The case bulletins are more widely available. LSGH (talk) (contributions) 16:16, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@LSGH: A line graph would be misleading unless some effort is made to apply retroactive changes. If a chart is only based on daily bulletins, then it suffers from recentism with a higher recent slope than in reality. {{Graph:Lines}} is only automated to the extent that the underlying tabular data on Commons is automated – which is to say, some of them still need some human intervention, just not nearly as much as the manual efforts here on Wikipedia. To avoid tedious manual updates, the authoritative time series data needs to be available in machine-readable format, or it can be scraped. The reason I started maintaining the tabular data on Commons is that some U.S. counties have only been kind of publishing the time series, trapping it in hard-to-use Power BI dashboards that can't be reused at all, but fortunately these particular dashboards are subject to laws putting them in the public domain.

Anyways, feel free to use the scripts and visualization I've put together for the San Francisco Bay Area as a starting point for a more sustainable replacement for these bar charts.

 – Minh Nguyễn 💬 07:57, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Mxn: The Omicron variant is chiefly responsible for the steeper slope in recent months. That could be remedied by adding an option to toggle the vertical scale to logarithmic instead of linear. I tried to know how many such time series data are available on Commons, and it turns out that very few countries have any data available. When creating new data pages, the initial data might be either entered manually or gathered from OWID or another reliable source. I would have imagined a solution that would make use of CovidDatahubBot or TolBot because no scripts need to be run manually, or even a different method altogether, but almost anything about automation is beyond me. But I'll give it a try too. LSGH (talk) (contributions) 09:30, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@LSGH: There are many more tables in this subcategory, but SLiuBot ran out of steam last July, even though the underlying dataset is still being updated. The tables you turned up are just about the only ones being updated regularly. It's not that more couldn't be maintained there, but there hasn't been very much enthusiasm for tabular data versus hand-maintained Wikipedia templates. Deleting these templates might give folks the nudge they need. :^) Minh Nguyễn 💬 07:27, 27 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Mxn: I hope so. Editors also get tired because of the tediousness of doing manual updates, and with much fewer active editors in the topic area than before, automation should be considered more seriously. The tables and graphs are more understandable than space-intensive bar charts. I recall that there was an attempt to revert one instance of automation, but it did not happen because the case for automation was already strong. I checked some of the pages in that subcategory, and yes, those charts could be more easily used if the bot were still running today. Instead, semi-automated scripts might still need to be used and most of those scripts would likely be run irregularly. Let's see how this plays out, more related TfDs in the coming weeks hopefully, or maybe more editors noticing and joining the process of automation in order to keep the data usable in some other way. LSGH (talk) (contributions) 18:20, 27 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm planning to nominate more in the future. There's always an issue with something like this, as to how to proceed. Nominating too many at a time often leads to a WP:TRAINWRECK situation. Nigej (talk) 15:26, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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Template:Compound surname edit

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The result of the discussion was delete. ✗plicit 12:00, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Unused hatnote. There's been a policy of trying to combine individual hatnotes in this area into {{Family name hatnote}}, so creating a new one doesn't seem useful. If there's a requirement it needs adding to Family name hatnote. Nigej (talk) 10:37, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If that really is a policy (please link it), we should consolidate it into {{Family name hatnote}} before we delete. The template is unused because it was created less than a month ago. ~BappleBusiness[talk] 20:57, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I shouldn't have said "policy" since that has a specific meaning. Probably should have said "consensus". See eg Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2020 September 4#Template:Arabic name, Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2020 October 3#Template:Catalan name, etc. "There is a consensus to merge templates of the form supported by {{Family name hatnote}}". Nigej (talk) 21:21, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure why we should consolidate it first, since it's not actually used and never has been. Nigej (talk) 21:28, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You know what, I'm fine with deleting it -- I'll just move the code into my sandbox so I can work to consolidate it. ~BappleBusiness[talk] 00:33, 22 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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Template:Security software edit

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The result of the discussion was delete. Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 21:41, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Navbox from 2019 on Computer security software. Presumably unfinished since it only contain 2 links, compared to the large number at Category:Computer security software. Nigej (talk) 16:11, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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Template:CMA International Artist Achievement Award edit

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The result of the discussion was delete. Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 21:42, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't seem to be a notable CMA award. It isn't even mentioned at all on the pages of most of the winners. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 19:55, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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Template:St. Charles Corridor edit

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The result of the discussion was delete. Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 21:41, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The St. Charles Corridor article was WP:BLARed recently and this route-map is now unused. Relates to "a proposed light rail line" from 2010. See Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2022 February 2#MetroLink (St. Louis) expansion route diagrams. Nigej (talk) 20:23, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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Template:BART service edit

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The result of the discussion was delete. Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 21:41, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Unused duplicate of Template:BART Lines. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 23:51, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete per nom. If a different style is required we need to modify the existing one, not create a new one. Nigej (talk) 06:24, 22 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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