Wikipedia:Stub types for deletion/Log/Not deleted/February 2006

February 2ndEdit

{{Warhammer-40,000-stub}} / Cat:Warhammer 40,000 stubsEdit

Discovered in November. Used on 41 articles (less than desired). Delete on the basis of its size, otherwise another name such as {{Warhammer40000-stub}} or even {{Warhammer-stub}} could be more convenient for the template. Conscious 07:06, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep. 41 isn't much less than 50. As for the renames, I've not seen anyone have a problem with the name, and renaming to {{Warhammer-stub}} would definitely be wrong as Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40,000 are different games, despite the similarity in the name. --Pak21 11:10, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak keep. Has grown since it last got deleted, possible under-sorting. (I seem to recall quite a few titchy WH40K articles kicking around.) No strong opinion on name, maybe add a {{WH40K-stub}} redirect (v. common abbreviated reference). Alai 09:25, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep There are enough to warrant it and renaming it it to Warhammer-stub would not be suitable as Warhammer is a seperate thing. It is likely that more will also appear sometime soon. -Localzuk (talk) 18:47, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment - Indeed, now that I have traversed nearly all the Warhammer 40,000 articles in order to add a new template to them all, I spotted a few more - the number currently stands at 68. -Localzuk (talk) 21:52, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, but rename template. {{Warhammer-stub}} is unambiguous enough and far easier on the typing. Grutness...wha? 23:48, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
    • It's not at all unambiguous, unless this is a vote to rescope to include the by-no-means-insignifantly-sized Category:Warhammer_Fantasy. Not that this would vex me greatly, and it'd help with the numbers... Alai 05:19, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
      • Comment: at least from my point of view, rescoping to include Warhammer Fantasy would be an unhelpful thing: I know about Warhammer 40,000 (and hence can, in theory, expand stubs on the subject), but I know not much at all about Warhammer Fantasy. --Pak21 09:19, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Oh, the nomination has doubled the number of articles in this category, and my only argument for deletion applies no more. Conscious 09:29, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

February 4thEdit

{{porn-film-stub}} / Cat:Pornographic film stubsEdit

Discovered in November, used on 35 articles. There may be more in Cat:Film stubs and Cat:Pornography stubs but unless it's shown, delete. Conscious 10:57, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep - to keep manageable. There's no reason this should be deleted (other than to entertain conservative ideologies, of course -- nothing personal to nominator). The JPS 02:56, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep as above. Ashibaka tock 06:46, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per above. Mikker ... 00:06, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep as above. jacksonj04 18:36, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

{{Moldova-bio-stub}} / Cat:Moldovan people stubsEdit

Discovered in November, used on 29 articles. Merge to {{Moldova-stub}} until there are 60. Conscious 10:57, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I've added it to a few articles, but still well short of 60. - Runcorn 23:48, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Weak keep it looks useful and well formed. I'd like to give it a try a little longer. It is currently used on 36 articles. --Valentinian 00:17, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I've found a few more. Now it is up to 40 articles. --Valentinian 11:24, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

{{TV-movie-stub}} / Cat:Television movie stubsEdit

Discovered in November, used on 86 articles. This one is well-populated, but it's a cross-cat in my opinion. There are categories "United Kingdom/Canada/Europe/United States television program(me) stubs", and I think these stubs should be sorted by nation and go there. (That's delete.) None of these national categories is overpopulated. Conscious 10:57, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

{{Marketing-stub}} / Cat:Marketing stubsEdit

Discovered in November, used on 45 articles. A decent number, but slightly less than desired. What do people think of this one? I'm voting weak merge to {{ad-stub}}. (It would be appropriate, wouldn't it?) Conscious 10:57, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

  • I still think this one might be useful. An alternative might be a reverse merge, since ads are a form of marketing, and keeping ad-stub as a redirect. Grutness...wha? 12:46, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
    • Agreed. Advertising is one method of marketing, but in general there are other variables involved (see marketing mix). So for example, the article on the decoy effect is marketing related (in that it deals with pricing and products) but not necessarily advertising related. It might seem like a minor point, but in marketing it's an important distinction.--Wasabe3543 20:04, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
      • Actually it looks to me like a lot of the things marked with ad-stub are actually marketing stubs (Demo mode, for instance). Grutness...wha? 22:54, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
        • If so, marketing category may be even more viable on itself. Conscious 06:45, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

February 7thEdit

{{US-hiphop-band-stub}} / Cat:United States hiphop musical group stubsEdit

There is currently no {{hiphop-group-stub}} (well there is, because I created it mistakenly; but its not in use) or Cat:Hip hop groups stubs. Anyone oppose moving this until that stub category gets too big?--Urthogie 09:45, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Clearly this is not simply a renaming proposal, but a rescoping one. Let's try and do this a little bit more clearly than last time. And similarly, please tag the template and category with the sfd-t and sfd-c templates, otherwise interesting parties will likely fail to notice this nomination, and it will not accordingly be valid. Alai 22:57, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Done.Rescope.--Urthogie 12:16, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
No, that wasn't done. You hid the templates on the discussion page. I have now inserted them in the category and the template. -- Robert Weemeyer 12:50, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm not trying to hide anything, guys, it was an honest mistake.--Urthogie 13:15, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Keep again, discuss {{hiphop-group-stub}} at WP:WSS/P if necessary. Personally I'm not sure, as bands/groups are primarily split by nation. Conscious 13:20, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes but we don't even have a group category for hip hop yet. So it seems illogical to go to a more specific cat before such a one exists.--Urthogie 13:49, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Keep. I agree with Conscious. -- Robert Weemeyer 14:10, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't it make sense for stub categories to get increasingly specific?--Urthogie 15:10, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

That's right. But you are trying to make this category more unspecific. Why don't you suggest a new {{hiphop-group-stub}}, as suggested by Conscious? -- Robert Weemeyer 16:10, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Because, it would be so unpopulated with this US category leeching on it. I know there are foreign hip hop groups, but on wikipedia its mostly american. 90 percent at least.--Urthogie 16:40, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
It means there is no need for {{hiphop-group-stub}}. Conscious 19:15, 8 February 2006 (UTC) basically, the way SFD works is if we have a category thats too specific, but takes away too much from the possible one above it, we keep it?! seriously, i've made some mistakes in the process here but it seems like the logic for keeping this is crazy. It's like saying I could make a stub category called Heterosexual people stubs before I made People stubs:) --Urthogie 21:34, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
keep thismakes no sense. the definition used for "band" is a "musical ensemble". what is a group? its a musical ensemble. so hiphop-band-stub works for both bands and groups. so the analigy Urthogie uses above is more "I want to make a category for people stubs, but youre asking me to make do with human stubs". and the logical split of the hiphop groups and bands is by nationality and since the US is the biggest load of them by nationality it makes sense for the first split. BL Lacertae - kiss the lizard 04:27, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Keep. For the purpose of stub-sorting, we are regarding a band and a group as one in the same thing. --Bruce1ee 06:24, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I'd be fine with calling it hiphop-band-stub. Just not the US part which leeches 90 percent from a potentially more inclusive category.--Urthogie 09:06, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
By removing the "US", you are making {{US-hiphop-band-stub}} more general. It already has 143 articles and doesn't need to be generalised. --Bruce1ee 13:39, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Probably 5 or 10 groups would be added by doing this! Most of wikipedia is american or english oriented, and the category wouldn't grow much! This is leeching off of a potentially more inclusive category that wouldn't lead those non US hip hop group stubs without a category!--Urthogie 14:18, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
there are 5-10 from new zealand alone. youll get lots. so what you need is a seperate hiphop-band-stub not rescoping this one. BL Lacertae - kiss the lizard 22:34, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

A stub category with 5 or 10 only would be deleted!!--Urthogie 16:54, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

yeh but im not suggesting a seperate nz catagory. youre saying that almost everything thats a hiphop band stub would be from the us. if there's 5-10 from nz, then 5-10 from australia, 5-10 from the UK, 5-10 from each of france, canada, japan, germany... youre gonna have more than enough for the parent cat. BL Lacertae - kiss the lizard 04:58, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
Fine-- I'll agree with you; lets rename this to {{hiphop-group-us-stub}} and create a new stub category called Hip hop group stubs. Sound fair?--Urthogie 17:39, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
why rename? nationalities are always put first in stub templates so it would be wierd to have this one go the other way round (and when have you ever heard anyone talk about a "hip hop group american"?) and anyway all music ensembles use some form of band-stub. so id say keep this one and make a seperate {{hiphop-band-stub}} for all other hiphop bands and groups. BL Lacertae - kiss the lizard 03:58, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Urthogie, this isn't "let's make a deal"; please take your proposals to the proposals page. Nor do I think it makes sense to introduce these mysterious new variations right at the end of the discussion period. Additionally, as per BL, this would be a counterproductive, counterintuitive and counter-precedent rename; furthermore, -us- is poorly capitalised. But just to keep things fully comprehensive, keep, don't rename, don't rescope, and ignore riders. Alai 06:07, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

February 11thEdit

rename of {{MEast-geo-stub}}and {{MEast-stub}}Edit

With the proposal for a Middle East buildings and structures stub in process, it's a good time to consider changing the names of the aboe to {{MiddleEast-geo-stub}}and {{MiddleEast-stub}}, as has been suggested during discussions at WP:WSS/P. I'm a little ambivalent about it, but can see that it would be a good move. Grutness...wha? 04:46, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

  • There are {{MEast-bio-stub}} and {{MEast-writer-stub}} as well. Conscious 13:23, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
  • keep unless its an easy fix-up. itd be nice to change them, but MEast isnt that confusing, so why bother? and its used on at least four templates with no problem. BL Lacertae - kiss the lizard 05:01, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Well, if no-oneobjects to it in the next day or so, I'll withdraw the nomination and go ahead and make MEast-struct-stub! Grutness...wha? 06:26, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
    • looks like that's a withdrawn nom, then... Grutness...wha? 23:31, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

February 15thEdit


Needs to be renamed to {{New-York-State-Route-stub}} for the following reasons:

  1. "NewYork" is not the name of the state, "New York" is
  2. New York State DOT calls their state numbered roads "Routes" not "Highways"
  3. Overall the articles on NYS numbered routes will be named "New York State Route N" so the stub should be appropriately named and these articles should include the correct stub. --Censorwolf 16:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Rename with a capital R. They are New York State Routes. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 22:30, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Agreed and done. --Censorwolf 15:57, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Would prefer "NewYork" over "New York" because all other NY-related stub template names don't contein space. Conscious 06:11, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Rename to {{NewYork-State-Route-stub}} as per Conscious (see below), and as per every single other stub relating to anywhere which has a two or three word place name, be it NewYork-struct-stub, NorthCarolina-school-stub, or BurkinaFaso-geo-stub. I have deleted {{New-York-State-Route-stub}} and its brand new category, which were incorrectly created only one day into the week long renaming process. Please don't muck around by renaming things before the debating period is finished! Furthermore, renaming a template does NOT mean creating a brand new template from an alternative name, especially from an alternative name which doesn't follow the naming guidelines! It's very likely that the template and category will be renamed, but - as with TFD and CFD - renaming during process is a very bad move, since it just makes for more confusion and more work! I've done something else that you should have done, BTW - reworded the template. Grutness...wha? 09:13, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
On second thoughts, given thhe name of the parent category, it should agree with that as NewYork-state-highway-stub unless there is also a move to rename that to match the WikiProject name. Iff it is hus renamed, then the template should be NewYork-State-Route-stub. Grutness...wha? 04:58, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
The category probably should be renamed too to the capitalized New York State Routes. Same with the stub category too. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 05:02, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
What is the procedure here? I am just trying to organize the New York routes project to have consistent naming using "routes", so article names, stubs, categories and lists all agree with what the NYSDOT calls them: State Routes. What gets renamed first so the others can follow? All the new articles are "routes" with the stub of "highway", and they appear on the list of "routes", but belong to the category of "highways". I know this is trivial, so all the more reason to get it settled, no? --Censorwolf 14:56, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Ididn't realizethe otherstubs were incorrectly namedalso. NewYork shouldn'tbe anydifferent Iguess. ;-) --Censorwolf 14:22, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Rename to {{NewYork-state-route-stub}} and Cat:New York state route stubs. What these are, is state routes that are in New York (State), and which are individually called "New York State Route 42", and the like. Contrary to Rschen's assertions, we have clear naming conventions for this: Do not capitalize second and subsequent words unless the title is a proper noun (such as a name) or is otherwise almost always capitalized and in particular, do not capitalise regular nouns. These are common nouns by any reasonable criterion, and nor are they "almost always" capitalised. A self-declared attempt to make this an exception to the naming conventions not only did not succeed, but was never formally proposed, after getting a distinct majority, if not a reasonable consensus, of people against capitalising such categories, contra to the NCs. The fact that most of these stub types are capitalised correlates to the fact that Rschen proposed most of them: most the permanent categories have lower-case names -- the parent of this one included: Category:New York state highways. We're supposed to follow the names of the permanent parent, as I recall. Alai 15:53, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
    • Good points Alai. I concur. Doesn't this mean that it should be "New York" over "NewYork" following parentage rules? --Censorwolf 18:14, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
      • I should of course have said, the stub category (which should also be renamed, I've now ammended my original point) should follow the permanent category. The stub template should then be anything reasonably consistent with that. The stub-specific naming conventions are now specific on avoiding spaces in names, so it's either NewYork-, or New-York-. I'm not greatly exercised which, though ideally firstly, it should be as consistent as possible with other NY stub templates (which on balance I think means, NewYork-); and secondly, we really should be specific about that in the stub NC. Alai 18:26, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
        • And we're trying to fix all of this at WP:NC/NR. It is generally acceptable for highway systems and components of highway systems to be capitalized. This is what the consensus at WP:NC/NH is moving towards. If we were capitalizing a phrase such as "I Will Be Going To The Store To Do Grocery Shopping" that would be unacceptable, and that is what the NCs are trying to prevent. But here there is a legitimate reason to capitalize the state highway system since well it is part of a specific highway system meeting specific criteria. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 07:58, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
  • How about {{NY-hwy-stub}}, that's a hell of a lot easier to remember. Hwy. vs. Rt. is needlessly pedantic and can be solved with redirects. — Feb. 17, '06 [18:57] <freakofnurxture|talk>
    • Or better yet, simply rescoping to {{NewYork-road-stub}}s in general. (But that was suggested before, at time of creation of at least one such 'batch'.) Alai 19:16, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
      • "NY-road-stub" would avoid the inane argument on whether to sp ace, hyph-enate, or CamelCase the name New York. Sounds like a good idea if the category population is not overwhelming. — Feb. 17, '06 [19:29] <freakofnurxture|talk>
        • Not really an inane argument - quite the opposite. It's a case of keeping things consistent so there are less inane arguments and so less duplicates are made because existing stub templates have non-standard names. I would agree though that New York is probably the one and only US state where the initial letters wouldn't cause too much concern as far as ambiguity is concerned. Grutness...wha? 00:56, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
          • I'd not object especially loudly to a redirect from NY-road-, but I'm with G., this really is a special case, and drifting off into using postal and other "local" styles of abbreviation is a bad idea in general. Alai 01:16, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
            • Except this is associated with WP:NYSR, a wikiproject on New York State Routes. Therefore we can't have it being a general {{NewYork-road-stub}}. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 01:20, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
              • why not? state routes are just a special type of road. NewYork-road-stub would cover state routes and other roads too. the wikiproject could just ignore the roads in there and leave them to editors who know about them. it wouldnt make the category much harder to got through. BL Lacertae - kiss the lizard 21:41, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
                • If you look at Category:United States road stubs, most of the highway stubs only cover state highways. Besides, there's only a few road stubs from New York considering that most of the major parkways are unsigned New York State Routes. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 03:01, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Rename to New-York-State-Route-stub.Gateman1997 08:43, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Except for KY and WV (at road), and the botched WA, every single other highway stub is at the capitalized forms. Why should New York be any different? --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 23:13, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
    • Answered above. Answered numerous times before. Fix 'em all. (And in the particular case of Rschen, please stop obstructing people from fixing them.) Alai 23:19, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
      • Then do an umbrella nom, or go to the NC page. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 23:26, 22 February 2006 (UTC)`
        • The existing NCs are perfectly clear, and still apply. The last "umbrella" nomination was not a great success: I seem to recall you complaining about what a confusing mess it was, indeed. (Not entirely inaccurately.) Alai 23:30, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
          • Well since the road people had no set goal. We pretty much have one now. And the prelim consensus on our NC specifically for highways is for caps. Also, the road stubs were a mess in 2004, which was cleaned up and set to the -State-Highway-stub or -State-Route-stub pattern. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 23:33, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Rename to {{NewYork-something-stub}}. Preferably state-highway, to match the parent category, or state-route as that's apparently used in New York. Since there's a wikiproject, it ought to just be state routes. But caps is fine, altho much less preferred, as long as it's NewYork, to match the other stubs for New York. Mairi 00:23, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
  • rename. first preference is {{NewYork-state-highway-stub}} but if the nonstub categorys going to be changed to the same as the wikjiproject name then the stub template should be {{NewYork-State-Route-stub}} to match that. BL Lacertae - kiss the lizard 01:00, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Rename per Alai ({{NewYork-state-route-stub}} and Cat:New York state route stubs). The phrase New York state route is in no way a name of any individual thing, it is a generic term used to refer to any state route in New York. Therefore it is not a proper noun and should not be capatalized as such.-Jeff (talk) 03:57, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
But then explain why half or more of the highway lists are at capitalized versions. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 04:05, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
What was inadequate about the twelve previous explanations of this phenomenon? Alai 18:47, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
I should ask the same question. And to answer yours, it is because enough highway people believe in the capitalized versions. I was only involved in one of those moves. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 18:57, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
You should ask the same question? I'm a little confused, wouldn't that be redundant?. But at any rate, how many do you consider enough? I don't think the capitalisation issue has achieved a clear and adequate consensus (either way, to be fair), and so to cite these creations, which certainly did not attract extensive support for That Particular Capitalisation, is misleading, and really demonstrates very little. Certainly not any more than the majority of the permanents being at the lower-case orthography. Hopefully this will in due course receive sufficiently wide scrutiny as to merit describing as a useful precedent (again, either way). Alai 22:26, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
I should ask why my continuing explanations of why the capitalization is correct are inadequate. The NC page is nearing consensus, regardless, and that will put an end to these long debates. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 01:52, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Capitalization rules should be followed as per standard English and WP guidelines, not based on precedent of a group of articles by a small number of editors. "That's the way we've always done it" is not a valid reason to continue. Road articles should follow WP guidelines. --Censorwolf 13:07, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Except these so-called "guidelines" are not technically correct. That's the purpose of the road NCs- to fix them. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 20:45, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

February 16thEdit

{{Western-novel-stub}} \ Cat:Western novel stubsEdit

Used on only two articles. Parent has acquired several marginal-looking stub types of late. Alai 08:24, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Strong keep - Please give us a chance; we on the Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels are trying to get this whole area sorted out and move the stub articles out of the book-stub (overpopulated) and ideally not just into novels-stub which is already quiet large. What we do 'not' need is peolple try to help by unnecessarily undoing our work. If you want to help please do. Always looking for more helpers, but it does take time. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 10:39, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
    well, what we don't need is people unnecessarily messing up our work! When were the new stub types proposed at WP:WSS/P? Did you check that the new stub types would reach threshold of 60 stubs before they were created? Do they fit in with the stub hierarchy? Grutness...wha? 12:20, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak keep - As a descendent of an overpopulated stub type, I can't recommend deletion until the ancestor has been examined for stubs that would fit here, but there really should be more than 2 stubs in here by now if anyone was doing active sorting which there should have been someone to say they were going to do it before the stub was created. Caerwine Caerwhine 00:12, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Neutral - I'd prefer to wait until the dust settles and Cat:Novel stubs is sorted. Conscious 06:11, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak keep - This one would probably be more difficult to sort - a minority of stubs state a book's genre outright. There are plenty of novels in the categories that I have no idea where to put since I've never read them and the article is no help. It's hard to say how many it'll have. Crystallina 05:21, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

{{Washington, D.C.-school-stub}} / Cat:Washington, D.C. school stubsEdit

Used on only four articles, perhaps because the template's so hard to type. This (and many more) arise from an "endogenous split" of US-school-stub into all fifty states, many of which, predictably enough, are very, very undersized. Suggest we replace with regional splits, as per the geos. Alai 07:39, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I definitely support the idea of merging them by region. However, it would be good not to replace the templates in the articles, to make use of them during the possible future re-splits. In addition, seven categories have already reached the threshold:
  • Alabama, 9
  • Alaska, 6
  • Arizona, 12
  • Arkanzas, 10
  • California, 260
  • Colorado, 18
  • Connecticut, 35
  • Delaware, 11
  • Florida, 142
  • Georgia, 27
  • Hawaii, 6
  • Idaho, 76
  • Illinois, 72
  • Indiana, 28
  • Iowa, 14
  • Kansas, 19
  • Kentucky, 16
  • Louisiana, 10
  • Maine, 33
  • Maryland, 46
  • Massachusetts, 53
  • Michigan, 42
  • Minnesota, 32
  • Mississippi, 1
  • Missouri, 17
  • Montana, 1
  • Nebraska, 14
  • Nevada, 4
  • New Hampshire, 11
  • New Jersey, 80
  • New Mexico, 10
  • New York, 110
  • North Carolina, 40
  • North Dakota, 4
  • Ohio, 37
  • Oklahoma, 8
  • Oregon, 16
  • Pennsylvania, 58
  • Rhode Island, 11
  • South Carolina, 8
  • South Dakota, 0
  • Tennessee, 21
  • Texas, 65
  • Utah, 17
  • Vermont, 5
  • Virginia, 46
  • Washington, 36
  • Washington, D.C., 4
  • West Virginia, 9
  • Wisconsin, 25
  • Wyoming, 2

Conscious 08:13, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Agreed, keep templates as redirects; delete all that're short of (any reasonable) threshold. Alai 08:16, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Proposed hierarchy:

  • Midwest (232)
    • Illinois (72)
  • Northeast (95)
    • Massachusetts (53)
    • New Jersey (80)
    • New York (110)
    • Pennsylvania (58)
  • South (266)
    • Florida (142)
    • Texas (65)
  • West (128)
    • California (260)
    • Idaho (76)

Conscious 09:32, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. Odd... somehow my comments got deleted here. To recap - this is how we dealt with the geo-stubs - split by the four regions first, and break out what states reach threshold. As such, I support. Someone should keep track of the numbers, though. We can always recreate the categories when states reach threshold - although it may take a while for South Dakota! Grutness...wha? 12:24, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

PS - I'd be willing to bend the threshold down for those with 40-60 stubs, since they'll probably be reaching target pretty soon anyway. Grutness...wha?<;/font> 00:44, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Rename template to {{DC-school-stub}} and keep the category. If they already exist and meet the naming conventions, let them stay. I've had time to think during my stub sorting sabbatical and frankly I've come to the conclusion that these sorts of arcane size rules are counterproductive to sorting. If all of the them were undersized I could see the point in not splitting at all, but once a category with a geographic limitation gets to the point of needing a split it is a lot simpler as far as sorting is concerned to go ahead and split out every subdivision at that level rather than just a few. Yes, it is more work for stub template and stub category makers, but the advantage in making the actual stub sorting simpler is definitely worth it in my opinion. We have a stub sorting project not a stub template project. Other than renaming the template needs to follow the convention set by {{DC-stub}}, leave things as they are. Caerwine Caerwhine 02:11, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
    • Does this keep extend to the sub-cats with populations of zero and one articles? I think there's some logic to a lower threshold for the sake of a certain degree of symmetry, but a horribly undersized category is still horribly undersized, whatever the symmetry, with exactly the same downside as regards foot-traffic and likely expansion. As an aside, if the unfortunate, cryptic and ambiguous precedent of DC-stub established a 'convention', how to refer to the actual naming conventions? Or are we throwing those out too? (For road stubs, that already seems to be a 'yes'.) Alai 05:12, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
    • Don't rename to {{DC-school-stub}}, {{WashingtonDC-school-stub}} is better. Conscious 06:11, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
      • While {{DC-stub}} may not have been formally adopted as a convention in the sense of "What do we use for Washington, D.C. in stub names?" it certainly does not a space as the existing stub template does, which is against the formalized naming conventions. As for the lower limit, given a choice between using arbitrary geographical groupings to subdivide an overfull stub category, and ignoring those limits so as fully subdivide in an unambiguous manner that won't require stub sorters to refer to an arcane key to figure out what goes where, I favor the latter. Without an overfull category to subdivide, the current policy works well enough. Caerwine Caerwhine 08:27, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
        • So, that was indeed a vote to keep categories with no articles (which are already speedily deleteable, btw). Just so long as we're clear. Alai 15:58, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
    • DC-stub is actually a bit of a mess (thanks to either the SPUI or Karmafist stub wars a couple of months back). We have WashingtonDC-geo-stub and DC-stub. However, I've just discovered that the geo-stub redirects to the non-geo-stub, which is a bit odd, to put it mildly. The whole thing needs work, but whichever of the two names is used (I'd favour WashingtonDC since just DC is pretty ambiguous - have a look at DC to see what I mean), it's going to be better than the current malformed template name. Grutness...wha? 09:06, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep in case more impossible-to-delete school cruft is written. Create redirects from the easier titles mentioned above, for greater accessibility. — Feb. 17, '06 [18:53] <freakofnurxture|talk>
  • Are you arguing for keeping all 51 templates/categories? I'm worried that some of them will always stay very small. Conscious 13:31, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong keep. It would be very helpful to make this distinction. If this were, say, the Arabic, Kurdish, or Turkish Wikipedia, this stub type would be found immediately useful. In our case, it may not be useful right away, but more specific stub types could become very convenient later, as we add more articles on Kurdish and Iraqi politicians. And in response to Valentinian's comment about Uyghur politicians, I would advise Wikipedians to populate vacant categories rather than delete them. Most are vacant because of systemic bias. Bhumiya/Talk 21:20, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

February 17thEdit

{{Armenia-bio-stub}} / Cat:Armenian people stubs; {{Armenia-stub}} / Cat:Armenia stubsEdit

On the down side, there are only 3 and 7 of these respectively. If one wanted to be especially kind, it's pretty new, and was seemingly even smaller at time of last db dump, so perhaps still growing. But at the least, merge the people into the more general cat, if not delete 'em both. Alai 19:51, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

  • For the bio-stub, perhaps a rescope to cover the whole Caucasus? We've done that before with other categories relating to this region. I think there's a grossly undersized Georgian people stubs category out there somewhere too. Of course, we'll have to be careful with the category wording ("Caucasian people" may be a bit misleading!). The current template can be used as a "redirect with potential". As to Armenia-stub, just redirecting to Caucasus-stub and a removal of the current category would be a reasonable option. Grutness...wha? 22:58, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Check now. I've added some to the bio stubs. Hakob 03:51, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

As I've just been poked on this... I'm going to close this as a keep, if no-one objects: bio-stubs are now over threshold, and since the root category holds that one... (Or we could keep both templates and merge the categories, if anyone wants to be super-strict.) Alai 04:11, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

No objection to keeping the bio-stub now. Still not convinced by the size of the parent armenia-stub category, but it may grow. Keep it for now, and if it doesn't grow it can be reconsidered in a couple of months. Grutness...wha? 05:00, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
As we're the only "voters", that about sorts that one out now. It does lead naturally to broader question of what sort of "subcategory threshold" we should have. Status quo seems to be that about 2 or 3 subcats is sufficient in and of itself... Alai 06:00, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Keep per Grutness. It does present a problem with the Caucasus-stub, which says "Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Georgia", though. Hopefully, that situation will not last long. --Valentinian (talk) 01:17, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

{{NovaScotia-stub}} / Cat:Nova Scotia stubsEdit

Thought we'd already deleted this, but I must be thinking of the -geo-. Used on one article. Alai 05:24, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete unless populated. Conscious 06:11, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep many US states have their own stub categories. Ardenn 17:49, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
    • Many US states stub categories have more than one article, too. Alai 18:03, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
    • and they were created becuase those states have wikiprojects. delete BL Lacertae - kiss the lizard 23:56, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete unless it can reach a reasonable number of stubs in the next few days. If it can be got up to 35-40 stubs by the end of this AFD, then keeping it would be worthwhile. Less than a couple of dozen, though, and I doubt it's worthwhile. Grutness...wha? 00:42, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
    • I've started having a bit of a scratch around, see if this is worth keeping. It's up to fifteen stubs, and there are at least that many again still to mark. Unfortunately someone's been buggering around with Cat:Canada stubs (it'll need null-edits on everything to fix it up), so it's difficult to see exactly what's in there at the moment. Grutness...wha? 08:36, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete unless populated as per Concious and the figures mentioned by Grutness. --TheParanoidOne 06:40, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Up to 22 now, just to be annoyingly borderline. Alai 18:48, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Up to 46 now. --Valentinian (talk) 01:18, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

February 18thEdit

{{aero-year-stub}} / Cat:1900s aircraft stubsEdit

Very narrow category, only three articles. Also: a parameterised stub template -- ickies. And lastly, a completely different scheme for splitting the aircraft stubs was proposed, to some degree of approval; this scheme was not proposed at all, naturally. Alai 15:45, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Since at least two people have voted keep on the apparent understanding that this is (through design or incompetence) actually a vote to delete all this family of (never-proposed, created on the quiet...) stubs, let me be clear: delete the undersized category, and replace the parameterised stub template with a family of stub templates on the standard pattern. Alai 01:46, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
  • delete for all the reasons alai says. BL Lacertae - kiss the lizard 18:16, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Don't Delete Very Strong Keep as the category is part of a structured sorting program for the previously disorganised aircraft stubs. If you delete one, I think you will have to delete the whole lot (They all use the same template). --GW_Simulations 21:01, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Also, I think that the proposal was simply to subcategorise them, and no specific categories were set intially, see - Category_talk:Aircraft_stubs for the full discussion of this system's creation. --GW_Simulations 21:28, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
    • Yeah, please do see that page, where I raised these issues, and asked you to refer to the existing proposal, well over a month ago. People having their own "structured sorting programs" self-consciously independently of the appropriate page for discussing these things, then pleading "fait accompli", is not especially productive. Alai 00:50, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
      • You were the only person who objected - there was an 80% majority in favour of changing them. --GW_Simulations 20:41, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
  • strong delete - including all the subcategories as they are at present, if they all use this stub. The prioposal was fairly detailed and would have got underway by now if it wasn't for this far less acceptable split. Furthermore, parameterised stubs are definitely a no-no. Grutness...wha? 22:50, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Ingoolemo talk 00:29, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Before this subcategorization, the aircraft-stub was full, and deleting this means that we would have to put them back to it again. Can anyone actually provide other means of categorizing them then? -- WB 19:30, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
    • of course. this was all discussed over at the proposal page and would have gone ahead by now if it wasnt for this very bad split. there was a much more sensible way of splitting sorted out - and it wouldnt have used proper stub templates not a parametred one. BL Lacertae - kiss the lizard 00:28, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
      • WB, one stub category is up for deletion, containing all of three stubs. That's going to overfill the parent how, exactly? Perhaps we don't need expanded speedy criteria so much as a resolve to give "appropriate weight" for "I like it/find it useful" votes which have no regard to the appropriate stub category guidelines. Alai 01:46, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
        • Perhaps I was a bit unclear there. Since all the aircraft year stubs use this template, if the template is deleted, this would "uncategorize" every single article that was in the aircraft stub. This could be avoided if we take the right procedures though. -- WB 03:02, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
          • If there was anything unclear about the intent of the original, I certainly can't see what's unclear about it as additionally specified. If I might quote myself: delete the undersized category, and replace the parameterised stub template. Alai 03:27, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
            • I said I was unclear. I agree then. Vote changed. -- WB 04:13, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
  • comment - if kept in its current form then the template should definitely be changed over to proper stub templates. Grutness...wha? 00:24, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
    • It definitely shouldn't be kept in any form, but the people, they're speaking, to semi-paraphrase Nixon. Farrago-recovery prodecures will probably have to be employed, by all appearances (unless we're bound by counter-guidelines democracy in that respect too). We'd need a family of names; to reprise my suggestion from Jan 7(!), {{aero-60s-stub}}, etc, would be feasible. (Or {{aero-1960s-stub}} if we want to be ultra-unambiguous.) Alai 03:27, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
      • the full name would be better, since we're back in the '00s again. Grutness...wha? 06:25, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
  • keep if it is possible to change the stub template (among with all other aero-####-stubs) so that these subcategories do not appear directly in the Category:Stub categories but only through the Category:Aircraft stubs --- the same should be done for all other "specific" stubs which are in an obvious way (by removing a part of their name) subcategories of another one. — MFH:Talk 20:21, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Is it not possible to change Stub Category|article=1900s Aircraft... into

Stub Category|article=Aircraft... ?

    • I don't follow the rationale for this. Are you suggesting that WSS in effect "wash our hands" of them, and leave them as is, on some sort of quasi-autonomous basis? As I understand this, what you're suggesting would a) be possible, b) be a function of the category pages, not the (single, malformed) stub template, and c) be a bad idea. Alai 20:52, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Convert to regular stub-sorting scheme, i.e. make a template for each decade. It wouldn't be more typing, but it would fix the categories. Conscious 07:09, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Very Strong Keep First of all, there are hundreds of articles in the aero-stub section, there are less in the 1900 section, which you have grouped it in. Now if there is only a small number of articles in one decade section, that's simply because said articles haven't been created. But once they are, there is a perfectly organized section. We had a talk section up for at least a week, and those who posted put their opinions forward and all those present agreed. I do not see how this way of organizing the stubs is ineffective? So why delete it? It works, and is logical, is there a problem with that? Change1211 06:36, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
    • Other than the fact that the splitting is meaninglessly arbitrary, leads to inherently undersized stub categories (just how many pre-1910 aircraft types are there left to write articles for?), contrary to the guidelines for stub creation, which are based on current numbers of articles, are counterproductive, illogical, use a badly formed template and that I told you this on that page on the time, your reasoning seems impeccable. Alai 06:44, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
      • So you would rather have a huge list of pages then? If it's a problem, I shall search all of my aviation books and post a fair number of pages which would remove your "not enough articles" post. Once again, it is a good way of sorting them, and I believe that you are wrong. Change1211 06:48, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
        • No, I'd like to have a category within the WSS rules of thumb for how long they should be, which the keepistas in this discussion seem to be paying no notice to whatsoever. And likewise, to the appropriately-located discussion as to how these should be split. It's not a binary choice between one monolithic, infeasibly long category on the one hand, and ones this ridiculously small on the other. There are sensible middle courses. Feel free to make the category "viable": 3 articles down, 57 to go. At that point, the category makes sense, not solely on the basis of vague expections of future articles. And once again: it isn't. Please read all the foregoing. Alai 07:10, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
        • So why are you asking it to be deleted then? And not just ask for a reorg instead? Change1211 07:55, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

  • Seeing how the seven day period is over, and the count is 5 - keep, 3 - delete. So the keep have it. Thanks all.
    • Just what we need, anonymous Keepers of Process. (Who then edit the template in such a way as to remove all the stubs concerned from any stub category.) This remains listed here because a) actually, "no consensus" has it; b) there's a related proposal, on the appropriate page, and c) the template still needs to be fixed, which I'm in still in the process of doing. (And optionally, d), because there's discussion as to whether we should ever keep stub types this small, as a matter of policy.) Alai 23:18, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Only three articles, my shiney metal butt!--KrossTalk 03:50, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Delete. Categories are created based upon the number of current articles. If this rule has somehow been abolished, I've got 20 new -politician categories to create. (just kidding.) --Valentinian (talk) 17:08, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

{{Arizona-State-Route-stub}} / Cat:Arizona State Route stubsEdit

Nominated for deletion two months ago (in what turned into quite a farrago, devoid of either consensus or clarity) this remains excessively small (six articles). Delete. Alai 15:56, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Speedy Keep - Eventually more Arizona State Route articles will need this stub. --Analogdemon (talk) 16:04, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Setting aside the lack of (appropriate) reasons for this being a keep at all, why on earth would this be a "speedy"? Alai 18:10, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
  • delete not useful at the moment. can always be remade later if there are enough articles. BL Lacertae - kiss the lizard 18:16, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Every state should have a highway stub. And besides, parent Category:United States road stubs has over 200 stubs at last check. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 20:10, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
    • In other words, nowhere near the splitting threshold (800), just as this type an order of magnitude away from the creation threshold? Alai 00:23, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
      • Actually around 350, I forgot how many. But eventually we will be creating a WikiProject for Arizona... I would do it right now but I have other things to do, and I can't start 50 WikiProjects at once... --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 01:18, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
        • As I say, nowhere near, 350 being distinctly less than 800. Oh goodie, another token US road wikiproject: whereupon it'll be merely a factor of five too small. See my earlier proposal for splitting the US-road-stubs by region, which was not really considered, pending resolution of these problem stub types. As evidently it's not going to be properly resolved this time either, I suggest we press ahead with that, regardless. Alai 01:31, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
          • That proposal is not effective for resolving the US-road-stub mess because... well firtst off we get into debates such as "Is Idaho part of Northwest or Rockies"? And that sort of thing. And the individual state highway systems have not much to do with each other. And it makes it hard to set up state hwy WikiProjects in the future. By the way this stub cat has 10 stubs. But yes we intend to set up as many state highway WikiProjects as we can, so this stub will not be abandoned. We have 8 states covered currently. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 01:41, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
        • Idaho's clearly in the west - four regions were used very effectively for geo-stubs with no problems whatsoever. And it should make no difference whatsoever to the setting up of WikiProjects later. You don't create a stub type because you're going to eventually make a WikiProject. You start with the wikiproject and then work out whether a stub type would be useful - exactly as most other WikiProjects have done. Grutness...wha? 05:37, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
          • Well what about states like Texas? Midwest or South? And this is not geography here. Arizona State Route 34 and New Mexico State Highway 76 have little to do with each other- in fact they might as well just stay in the US road stub category. And you have to go through proper channels to set up such a system anyway. And you don't create a stub type solely for the WikiProject but you don't make it inconvenient for the creation of a WikiProject either. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 05:42, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
        • texas is south not west. have a look at the articles Southern United States, Midwestern United States, Northeastern United States and Western United States. they tell you whats where. read the paragraphs that talk about the official census bureau designations. BL Lacertae - kiss the lizard 00:26, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
          • But some people will tell you that Texas is south. They have the Southern accent right? And they were part of the Confederacy. See what the problem is? --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 06:10, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
        • Let's take Rschen's comments one at a time:
          Well what about states like Texas? Midwest or South? - already covered by BL. Texas is south, according to the US census bureau, which is what is used for such designations in many Wikipedia articles. It's also what has been used for stub types.
          And this is not geography here. - it's the topographical location of roads within a country. Sounds pretty much like geography to me.
          Arizona State Route 34 and New Mexico State Highway 76 have little to do with each other- in fact they might as well just stay in the US road stub category. Indeed they could, except that you and others have been arguing for separate categories. As to roads in Arizona and New Mexico having little to do with each other, they have one extremely important thing to do with each other - they are both in the western United States - as any editor dealing with articles about Arizona or New Mexico would know.
          And you have to go through proper channels to set up such a system anyway. Yes, well that's an easy enough thing to do - and avoids having this sort of discussion on sfd later, since things would be done right the first time.
          And you don't create a stub type solely for the WikiProject but you don't make it inconvenient for the creation of a WikiProject either. We don't make it inconvenient for new WikiProjects. In fact, WSS is listed on the standard "How to start a WikiProject" template as a place you might find useful once a WikiProject is set up. Set up the WikiProject, then see WSS about the possibility of having a stub template. It's very rare that WSS turns down stub templates for Wikiprojects once they're a going concern - in fact we help, by creating well-formed and named stub types and even populating the categories. Grutness...wha? 05:31, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
          • Well it seems like you really don't want this stub to exist... well whenever the state highway WP is started it probably will spring back into existence. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs)
        • If there were enough stubs, I'd have no problem with it whatsoever. There clearly aren't currently, though, and there's been no indication that the number of articles is rising at the moment. If and when it gets there, it'll get my support. Grutness...wha? 08:10, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
            • As soon as an appropriate number of stubs spring into existence, that's fully expected, not a problem, and isn't affected by this decision (or lack thereof...) here. In the meantime, it's better for these stubs for them to be in a category with a reasonable critical mass. Alai 07:00, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
              • I have better things to do than defend this stub, considering that it is relatively unimportant in the scheme of things. There are bigger concerns I have, such as New York below, and resurrecting Oregon. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 07:14, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, too small. Conscious 11:33, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Keep. Needed and useful.Gateman1997 08:42, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. We either have stubs for each state route project or we don't. If the threshold for having a stub cannot be met even if we create a stub article for every route in each state, then let's scrap the stub-per-state concept and just use a generic state-route-stub. However, it is important to have a separate project for each state since most editors are going to contribute to articles on their states mostly, and different states have different naming systems etc. so having just a us-routes-project or 4 regional-routes-projects would cause too much arguing and discussion instead of contributions to content. So keep the Arizona-route-stub if it meets the requirments, otherwise use a default state-route-stub in these articles for now until a state project meets the threshold required (if ever), then create a route-stub for the state. Meanwhile, use the state-project-stub once the state project has been started. --Censorwolf 14:17, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Returning to this once the chaos at CA is over. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 22:45, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

February 27thEdit

{{Philos-novel-stub}} / Cat:Philosophical novel stubsEdit

Another unproposed genre-based split; 8 articles, extremely vague criterion for inclusion. Alai 06:07, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep - admittedly the creator - I did ask for some help in the proposal page for work to be done to help sort this "Novels" and "Fiction" area of the categories and stubs. With non forthcoming, I made a start myself, possibly not the best, but there it is. This is part of the Wikipedia:Wikiproject Novels work on categorization. Also part fo an attempt to whittle down the excessive number of {{book-stub}} and {{novel-stub}} articles. You might notice there are some more articles arriving as this is very much work in progress. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 09:14, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
    • you didn't. as i pointed out on the proposals page, what you proposed was spliting the main novel categories. you made no suggestions relating to stubs at all. thats why i suggested that your proposal should have been at WP:CFD rather than at WP:WSS. if youd made a proposal about stubs we would have discussed it more. as it is this is much too vague. what is a pholosophical novel anyway? BL Lacertae - kiss the lizard 22:47, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. No split of stub categories was ever proposed, and at under 600 stubs there's no real need to split the parent. The proposal to split the main category, placed on WP:WSS/P and questioned there, suggests a considerable number of categories which - if the stub category was split into them, would give an average category size of only about 20 - well under threshold. Suggest that this and any other split of Cat:Novel stubs currently in process be halted and proposed for debate - properly this time. Grutness...wha? 23:27, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
  • KEEP User:Gnome (Bot) is being set up to find articles that belong here. WP:NOVEL is still a work in progress. Please give me 2-3 weeks, as the bot still needs to be approved ect. according to WP:BOT.Eagle (talk) (desk) 15:41, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
The bot is now waiting for approval for its debug period, just give me some time!!(and give WP:NOVEL time to finish what it started)Eagle (talk) (desk) 17:27, 5 March 2006 (UTC)