Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2024 June 23

Welcome to the Wikipedia Miscellaneous Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is a transcluded archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

June 23

China, Russia, and Genghis Khan

There is a theory I rarely see discussed, that attributes the lack of democracy in modern China and Russia, and the emphasis on violence and brutality, as part of the cultural inheritance of Genghis Khan that neither country has ever been able to shake. Is there an element of truth to this, that helps explain the continuing tradition of autocracy in that region, or is this a kind of pseudohistory? Viriditas (talk) 00:32, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

I cannot see how this can be discussed without breaching "We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate." 01:48, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

If there are history textbooks that address the idea, we could legitimately point to them and even summarise their theses. Something akin to it is utilised in the background setting of Donald Kingsbury's 1986 near-future science fiction novel The Moon Goddess and the Son, so it's been around for a while. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.226.178 (talk) 02:05, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

I think I found part of the answer attributed to historian Moshe Gammer. Katherine A. Maximick at the University of Victoria cites Gammer, writing "The Mongol conquest has been accused of disrupting the development of Russian culture and society, and the Mongols and Tatars blamed for Russia's backwardness compared to the rest of Europe." Is this considered a legitimate historical explanation? Yes or no? And do historians say the same for China? Or to put it another way, if the Mongol invasions and conquests didn't occur, how different would the world look today, particularly in regards to China and Russia, and their relationship with Europe and the west? Or to put it yet another way, can we point to Genghis Khan as the cause of our current geopolitical predicament? Viriditas (talk) 02:16, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

The article about Khan says he's reviled in Russia. Meanwhile, today's featured article leads to an article about the Komagata Maru incident, which was barely a century ago. Were the brutal British colonialists also influenced by Khan? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:18, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, not following you. Surprisingly, there are current academic books and papers out there that blame British Imperialism for just about everything. Viriditas (talk) 02:22, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

In general, autocracy and brutality have been the norm throughout history. Democracy is exceptional. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:45, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

I’m aware. The question is why? Viriditas (talk) 03:02, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

It's been that way since the beginning of recorded history. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:42, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

The rule of law is supposed to act as a check on autocracy and brutality. Viriditas (talk) 03:46, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

The key word here is "supposed".  --Lambiam 07:56, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

In China, Genghis Khan is often seen as the creator of China as a unified nation, even though the Song dynasty was only conquered after his death. In any case, the view is generally positive.  --Lambiam 08:11, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

I have never seen that expressed in any Chinese source. Nor – until today, right at the top of this thread – that anything (actual, supposed, or imputed) about modern China originated with Genghis Khan. Folly Mox (talk) 11:49, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

There’s some info over at Poetry of Mao Zedong lending weight to what Lambiam was saying, but these may be older ideas from another generation: "Genghis Khan, whom the Chinese celebrate as the founder of the Yuan dynasty despite him never personally conquering China.” FWIW, Mao apparently killed more people in China than Khan. Viriditas (talk) 12:18, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Did the Mongol conquest disrupt China’s development? Kublai Khan established the Yuan Dynasty in 1271. Without that, there would have been a different development that likely would have excluded Zheng He’s exploratory voyages and the incorporation of Mongolia into the empire. The Yuan was a time of great literary and artistic progress, as well as contact with Western, south Asian, and Middle Eastern empires. Religious diversity flourished, and China’s advances in science out-ran those of other parts of the world for several centuries. Hence, the short answer would appear to be no. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 00:39, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. I have several followup questions:

• Zheng He was originally Muslim. Given the history of Islam in China, how is it that they have swung in the opposite direction, to the now-prevalent, anti-Islam attitudes? Is this more of a reaction to political Islam and its associated threats, or something else? Also, from a non-Chinese POV, how are the threats of political Islam all that different from the threats of the Chinese Communist Party in the 20th century? Don't both ideologies use the same kind of violence and brutality to achieve their goals? From where I stand, they seem almost identical in their means and methods.
• Looking at the Yuan dynasty, we see that western medicine was opposed. This doesn't sound like "great progress". It also looks like religious diversity wasn't exactly flourishing as much as we are told. Islamic and Jewish practices were banned, Buddhism was upheld as the state religion, particularly the more superstitious and mystical form of Tibetan Buddhism, rather than the more philosophical and secular variants that were known. The class system was promoted, with ethnic minorities being treated terribly, with class being centered around concepts related to submission. This is the opposite of the western, democratic, egalitarian tradition. Viriditas (talk) 21:49, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

What is the best way for me to get signatures for a petition?

I made a petition a while ago to bring a US business over to the UK. I am annoyed, as I can’t seem to figure out how to get people to sign it. It’s driving me crazy, and I’ve been in danger for getting into trouble for spam. How on earth am I meant to do this? I don’t have many friends on social media, and I am not very good at using it. How do I reach out to people? Thank you. Pablothepenguin (talk) 18:24, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

You need to know your audience. Where would you most likely find the people who would sign your petition? See market research. Viriditas (talk) 19:37, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

I can’t find a good place. Pablothepenguin (talk) 21:22, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

For the background to this question, see here. --Viennese Waltz 21:23, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Ok, that was very helpful. Pablothepenguin, now that I have more information about your problem, there is good news and bad news. The bad news first: give up on the idea of petition for this, as you are using a butter knife to try and bring down a dinosaur. It's not the right tool for the job. Now for the good news: you sound like just the person who is a self-starter and willing to run their own business. You know what you want to do, but now all you need is a roadmap to make it happen. First thing you are going to need is a business plan. Your town will also have resources to help you, such as small-business associations, etc. In my specific area, there are yearly stipends available for certain kinds of businesses, but they usually aren't very much. For example, my state is trying to promote farming by offering land and cash, but it's pretty tough because you have to move and start from scratch. Anyway, there are also business incubator communities that you will want to join and get to know people in the network. I know, you said you aren't good face to face, but this is a way for you to learn. As for social media, check out the incredible, worldwide success of a young baker like Kitty Tait at the Orange Bakery. She's a hero to a lot of people, and you might want to check her out and her community online. I find her story inspirational. Those are the kinds of people you can learn from here. Viriditas (talk) 21:39, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

What nonsense are you talking about? Pablothepenguin (talk) 21:45, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

You sound too much like a shill. Could someone please direct me to a more reliable source of information? Pablothepenguin (talk) 21:50, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

For courtesy, you can find the petition here: [www.change.org/MenchiesUK] Pablothepenguin (talk) 21:52, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I'm shilling for Big Bread in the UK. All the way from Hawaii. Good luck with your future endeavors. Viriditas (talk) 21:53, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

I wasn’t talking about that, I was talking bout all the nonsense about running my own business. Pablothepenguin (talk) 21:58, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

What part of it is nonsense? It's the same advice you were given in the other discussion. Reach out to the business community and network with them. Have a great day! Viriditas (talk) 22:01, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

But I can’t do that. I’m too busy being poor and I don’t understand business technobabble. Pablothepenguin (talk) 22:03, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Great. That's an opportunity for you to start learning. Recognize your flaws and deficiencies, and move forward by addressing them. Welcome to the business world. Viriditas (talk) 22:05, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Why are you so keen on me getting into business? I’m not trying to start my own business you know, I just want to address an injustice in my country. One that offends me so greatly, I can’t even focus on my normal work. Pablothepenguin (talk) 22:07, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

When you perceive that there is a lack of something and someone needs to do something, you are very often the best person for the job. Congratulations on your new position as CEO. Viriditas (talk) 22:11, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

I do need to raise awareness of this issue. It is eating at me and I’m not very happy these days because of it. Pablothepenguin (talk) 22:14, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Well, to get back to Kitty Tait up above, you might want to check out her book Breadsong. She was in the same boat as you until she started baking. Viriditas (talk) 22:19, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

And before I forget, check out the inspirational story of Katie Fahey, one woman who changed the entire state of Michigan. You can do this. Viriditas (talk) 22:29, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the positive comments. I really do appreciate them. For the sake of clarity, I will remind you that I see a great injustice in the world that breaks my brain. How can it be that there are tonnes of self-serve froyo places in the US, but I always have to ask a complete stranger to serve me in my locale? That’s the problem. Pablothepenguin (talk) 22:41, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

I do not know a lot about online petitions, but I do know something about franchising. I think it is doubtful that an online petition would make a difference. Have you been in touch with the company? Your first step (and perhaps you have already taken this) should be to reach out to the company to let them know that there is interest in the UK, and particularly in your area, in being able to patronize their outlets. Moving into a new country is a big and expensive decision, and learning that there is already interest is reassuring.

Evidence of that interest will help your case. But an online petition is not very good evidence, since an online petition can be signed from anywhere. That said, if the company tells you that there is a particular kind of evidence they are looking for, you might be able to act on that. John M Baker (talk) 22:49, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

I’ve just done that. I hope I can make a difference here. My sanity depends on it. My will to live is still just fine, but I sometimes worry it will weaken if I don’t see change soon. Pablothepenguin (talk) 22:56, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

You should consider opening up your own froyo shop. Where I live, they do very well, provided there are tourists to buy them. And that's really what it comes down to for you as well. In business, this is called "foot traffic" (also geographic location). Combine these metrics with a good product and experience, and you have the recipe for success. Based on what John M. Baker said, you could contact the company and go from there. My guess is that they may want to hire you to help open a store. BTW, I kind of like "Ride or Die Froyo" as a potential name for a new business. It's catchy, memorable, and attracts a younger customer base. Just my two cents... Viriditas (talk) 23:01, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

It is hard, I’ve got a lot of other projects to work on. Projects, such as becoming a fine music producer, composing songs for commercial and kids’ entertainment, and sorting out my living arrangements. I am a very sensitive person, who just can’t stand the idea of the ice cream machine being locked away in a staff only area. Pablothepenguin (talk) 23:04, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

What was the company's response when you reached out to them? John M Baker (talk) 23:12, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

I’ve only just sent to them. It will be a while yet for a response. Pablothepenguin (talk) 23:13, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Well, I would not waste time on a Change.org petition. Are there local bulletin boards in your area that neighbors can use to connect? I'm thinking of something like Nextdoor. You could try posting something about the advantages of this kind of frozen yogurt shop and see if you get any responses. If several people post that, yes, they would love to see something like this, giving their own reasons and experiences, you could let the company know about that, so they could tell that it is not just one enthusiast's views. If the response is less positive, no need to bring the discussion to the company's attention. John M Baker (talk) 23:22, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Best thing I found is local Facebook pages. Pablothepenguin (talk) 23:43, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

It seems like it can’t hurt to post something there. Probably best to be clear that this is not something you want to start (you have other vocational goals - no need to jump immediately into what they are), but something you want to see and patronize. John M Baker (talk) 23:53, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

BTW, in case you haven't heard of it, one of the most interesting hyper-small business, ice cream success stories in recent years is CVT Soft Serve. It's surprising they don't have their own article. Keep in mind, they are your antagonists, as they are vociferously anti-froyo, but it's important to be aware of their business model.[1] Frankly, it's fascinating, so take some time to explore their website. They started with a simple food truck (you should seriously consider this), and have expanded to frozen products in the supermarket freezer aisle, and full-service machines. They also do major catering events. Their success is due to diversification into multiple revenue streams. Viriditas (talk) 23:14, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

I think that a petition to Menchie's Frozen Yogurt is unlikely to help in bringing Menchie's to the UK. Who you need to convince are potential franchisees, not the franchisor. One reason people may not sign your petition is that they are not familiar with Menchie's and do not know why they should take your word for how great it is. But even if ten thousand people sign it, potential franchisees will not be aware of it.  --Lambiam 05:12, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your insights here. Now, I just need to track down potential franchisees. Any advice for that? Pablothepenguin (talk) 17:11, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

You were given advice on that back in February, in the discussion I linked to above. We seem to be going round in circles here. --Viennese Waltz 18:11, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Where are the franchisees? Why can’t anyone on this huge wiki tell me where on earth these people can be found? The February post didn’t manage to figure this out, so could you please think hard about this? Could someone please find me some business contacts in Scotland and England? That’s all I ask for. Pablothepenguin (talk) 18:41, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Where are the potential franchisees? That's exactly what the franchisor would like to know. Existing franchisees, of course, it presumably knows about in detail. But there is no way of knowing for sure which motivated individuals may come forward and be willing to act as franchisees.

To be sure, there are websites, franchise brokers, conventions, etc., that people considering becoming franchisees may use, so there actually are some ways to approach potential franchisees. But for you to do that on your own, effectively acting as a marketing manager for Menchie's, seems like a big task. And it won't even help if Menchie's is not yet ready to go into the UK market. That's why I suggested that you focus on approaching them for now. Let them do the heavy lifting of finding franchisees. John M Baker (talk) 21:08, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

I don’t know for certain, but the fact that they’re doing fine in Canada speaks volumes. The UK seems like the next logical step in the progression. Culturally and economically, it is closer to the US than any other country in the world, excepting Canada and possibly certain Caribbean and Pacific Island countries. Certainly there is a lot of commonality when considering food. I note that the UK has always been a high ticket item for US food franchise people. It just makes sense. The fact that they have a couple of Middle Eastern locations tells us that distance is not likely to be an issue for them.

I do acknowledge that the business is still relatively young, what with some US food franchises dating back as far as the 1950s and possibly earlier. I also notice that most businesses that come to the UK from the US are generally 30 years old or more, so perhaps it just takes time. I really think the UK needs this, there isn’t a proper frozen dessert chain here, and that market gap should be filled. I am determined to do everything in my power to help this process along.

I’m sure Menchie’s could fit very well into the UK food scene, and I would imagine that places such as Brighton, Edinburgh, Glasgow, London, Liverpool and more would really enjoy such a thing. The main issue that a lot of countries have is getting the post-Covid economic turbulence out of the way. With the virus receding in our rear-view mirror, this will come soon, perhaps by 2026. The main signs of improvement will be sustained low inflation figures and national interest rates, which currently stand very high, being cut down.

I’m not pretending to understand the extremely complicated world of business and economics; all I can do is weigh in with my two cents. So, I will conclude by saying that getting Menchies in the UK by 2030 is my main priority, and I’m sure that could happen, I will also apologise for the extreme length of this post. Pablothepenguin (talk) 22:15, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Menchie's say they are expanding all over the world and are currently qualifying candidates worldwide.^[2] They write, "Our franchisees come from all sorts of backgrounds, from police officers, engineers, stay-at-home parents and experienced franchise owners to neurologists, teachers, dentists and executives. There is no single background or education level which determines success."^[3] Also, "Aside from the necessary capital, you will need some people skills, contagious guest care mentality and a community orientation."^[4] Obviously, there is no specific place, real or virtual, where you can find potential franchisees. You may be sitting next to one in your local pub. So just talk to people locally; who knows, someone will say, "I know just the right person."  --Lambiam 10:07, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you once again for your insights. I really appreciate them. I will be thinking about people to talk to virtually or otherwise. Hopefully I can do good things that way. Pablothepenguin (talk) 23:03, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I’m not a bad person, honestly. I worry however, that people will think I’m insane, simply because I have very vibrant and unconventional ideas. This very question gives a good example. This is one of three questions I’ve posted about the same topic, and I’m still stuck on it. Why do I always feel like I’m the only person inventive enough to come up with this idea? It’s as if I live on another planet and nobody cares. Sometimes I even feel irrationally angry about the lack of any common sense here.

My life generally consists of these rather crazy situations that never seem to get resolved. I am definitely a determined individual and I must get my end result. It is not a complex issue, but I’m the only one who notices the injustice within it apparently.

I mean, come on! How can I be the only man in all of Britain to see the blatant contradiction of logic that is found here, I mean, how can it be that no individual in my entire nation can see the lack of self-serve frozen yogurt stores? What kind of horrible things have I done to end up in this strange purgatory of a country? Pablothepenguin (talk) 18:38, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

What should I do now? Pablothepenguin (talk) 20:03, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Maybe move to a country that's more yogurt-friendly? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:32, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I don’t think OP has the finance for that. Also that misses their main point. They would like to see more frozen yogurt places in their home. Thank you 2A00:23EE:1988:10:AD62:6375:4489:E17B (talk) 10:32, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Has Pablo been unmasked as VXFC? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:23, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Absolutely not. I know nothing of that person. Pablothepenguin (talk) 20:08, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I still can’t get my head around the current situation. Why won’t anyone join me in my ambitious campaign to get a frozen yogurt store in my area?

Also, when will I ever get to where I want to be? Pablothepenguin (talk) 18:10, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

For that last bit, you might need to consult a therapist. (And also ask if they like frozen yogurt.) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:25, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

More help will be appreciated. I will be starting a campaign soon. Please direct me in my work. Pablothepenguin (talk) 20:01, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Can I have some help please? Pablothepenguin (talk) 00:49, 8 July 2024 (UTC)