Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2023 June 26
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June 26
editWhich place is this?
editThe pogodaiklimat.ru website has climate report for a place in Turkmenistan called Екеже in Russian. That would be Ýekeže in Turkmen. But when I type it or Екеже to Google Search, then it finds nothing other than weather reports. Russian Wikipedia does not know Екеже. Does this place really exist? --40bus (talk) 16:07, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
- I've found this word used in several editions of a newspaper of the Turkmen Soviet Socialist Republic, written in Cyrillic in 1990. For example, here it occurs several times on page 6. I don't know what it means. It may be a word rather than a place name, or a place name which is also a word. Card Zero (talk) 17:10, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
- It appears to be in Daşoguz, but that's as far as I can get. One weather source gives its coordinates as 41°01'58.8"N 57°46'01.2"E. --jpgordon𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇 18:25, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
- Turkmen ýekece means alone, only. --Lambiam 19:06, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
Pizza vs Pasta sauce
editI am looking for a reference on the differences between pizza and pasta sauce. I was able to answer the question based on personal experience working in an Italian restaurant as a teen. Pizza sauce is uncooked because it cooks on the pizza. Also, pizza sauce is water based because oil based sauce will make the toppings slide off the pizza. Pasta sauce is oil based because water based will make the pasta spongy. But, when I look online, I can only find a few unsupported claims that the absolute only difference is that pizza sauce usually is made with uncooked tomatoes. Being a reference librarian, I really want to find a true reference for this. 97.82.165.112 (talk) 17:59, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
- If they are truly different, it may be hard to find a source explicitly stating this, just like it will be hard to find a source discussing the differences between grapes and olives. But I doubt that there is a hard difference. Pasta sauce, in all recipes, has a substantial water content, and many recipes for pizza sauce use olive oil; see the recipe for pizza marinara. If the peeled tomatoes figuring in this recipe for pizza marinara were usually uncooked, the Associazione Verace Pizza Napoletana would not have ruled that "the addition or substitution of peeled tomatoes with fresh tomatoes is allowed". --Lambiam 18:54, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
- You got the first part right: authentic pizza sauce is raw; but the second part sounds wrong. Most authentic Italian pizza sauces have olive oil in the sauce. Viriditas (talk) 04:54, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
- Italian "pizza" is not generic pizza. Mainly, it has no cheese. I can see how cheese, which has a lot of water in it, won't stick to bread if it is sitting on a pool of oil. But, I never really wondered why some pizza places have slices where the toppings stay on and others the toppings slide right off. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1004:B0C2:7613:FCA1:5B9A:AA96:8A80 (talk) 13:33, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
- The recipes for some truly Italian pizzas use cheese. For example, the classical recipe for pizza Margherita uses mozzarella. The recipe for pizza romana – in spite of the name a Neapolitan dish – also calls for mozzarella.[1] Pizza al pecorino as an Easter dish is another Italian classic.[2] Tuma, the curd precursor of pecorino, is a traditional ingredient of Sicilian pizza (on Sicily). While not one of the classics, pizza ai quattro formaggi is also widespread in Italy, at least in pizzerias.[3] In all these recipes, the cheese goes into the oven with the other ingredients on top of the pizza base. --Lambiam 09:38, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
- And then there's pizza bianca, which does not have tomato sauce, but — who'd a thunk it? — cheese. --Wrongfilter (talk) 09:44, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
- I'm very, very happy that you brought this up, as I would have raised this point if I hadn't been distracted by something shiny. Pizza before the 17th/18th century never used tomatoes of any kind. This has always interested me. Our article on pizza traces its origins to the 10th century, but the newest research traces it back to 79 AD in Pompeii. When I was a young adult, I worked for an authentic Italian pizzeria, and one thing that always stuck with me is that the best pizzas never used tomato sauce. I think this says something about the dish. Viriditas (talk) 09:57, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
- And then there's pizza bianca, which does not have tomato sauce, but — who'd a thunk it? — cheese. --Wrongfilter (talk) 09:44, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
- The recipes for some truly Italian pizzas use cheese. For example, the classical recipe for pizza Margherita uses mozzarella. The recipe for pizza romana – in spite of the name a Neapolitan dish – also calls for mozzarella.[1] Pizza al pecorino as an Easter dish is another Italian classic.[2] Tuma, the curd precursor of pecorino, is a traditional ingredient of Sicilian pizza (on Sicily). While not one of the classics, pizza ai quattro formaggi is also widespread in Italy, at least in pizzerias.[3] In all these recipes, the cheese goes into the oven with the other ingredients on top of the pizza base. --Lambiam 09:38, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
- Italian "pizza" is not generic pizza. Mainly, it has no cheese. I can see how cheese, which has a lot of water in it, won't stick to bread if it is sitting on a pool of oil. But, I never really wondered why some pizza places have slices where the toppings stay on and others the toppings slide right off. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1004:B0C2:7613:FCA1:5B9A:AA96:8A80 (talk) 13:33, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
- Wait, "Place of origin = United States"? Is that correct? I've seen pizza bianca in Italy, and it's listed in List_of_pizza_varieties_by_country#Italy. --Wrongfilter (talk) 09:48, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
- In the eighties we visited Italy a few times. I never had any problem getting a pizza without tomato sauce - they would do it for any pizza on the menu, just substituting a white sauce. It's the only country I've visited where nobody insists you have to have tomatoes in it for it to be Italian food. DuncanHill (talk) 09:51, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
- The issue here is that there is a food item in Italy named "pizza." Also, there is a food item in the United States named "pizza." They are not the same thing. This is no different than a food item in Italy named "pepperoni" which is unrelated to the food item in the United States named "pepperoni." While the two pizzas have some similarities, they are rather different. In the United States, generic pizza is bread, tomato sauce, and mozzarella cheese. Because it is a very popular dish, there are thousands of customizations, such as replacing the tomato sauce with pesto sauce. I once had a seafood pizza that used a special bread, sauce, and cheese just for the crab and shrimp meat. It was a pizza only by the definition of having stuff on top of a flat circular thing. Taco Bell in the United States used to sell "Mexican Pizza", which was a round flat tortilla shell topped with refried beans and cheese. Again, it is a pizza only in the manner of being stuff on top of a flat round thing. When posing the question, I wasn't trying to get into a semantic argument over the definition of pizza. I know that there are many definitions. I was discussing the difference between pizza sauce and pasta sauce. The response was that if you look at pizzas that do not have cheese, you put olive oil in the pizza sauce. What if the pizza does have cheese, which is the case in nearly all pizzas sold in the United States? 97.82.165.112 (talk) 11:13, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
- So when you use "pizza" in your question, do you mean "US-style pizza" (which, other than for the name, is unrelated to Italian pizza, so any consideration involving Italian pizza is irrelevant)? --Lambiam 23:18, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
- The issue here is that there is a food item in Italy named "pizza." Also, there is a food item in the United States named "pizza." They are not the same thing. This is no different than a food item in Italy named "pepperoni" which is unrelated to the food item in the United States named "pepperoni." While the two pizzas have some similarities, they are rather different. In the United States, generic pizza is bread, tomato sauce, and mozzarella cheese. Because it is a very popular dish, there are thousands of customizations, such as replacing the tomato sauce with pesto sauce. I once had a seafood pizza that used a special bread, sauce, and cheese just for the crab and shrimp meat. It was a pizza only by the definition of having stuff on top of a flat circular thing. Taco Bell in the United States used to sell "Mexican Pizza", which was a round flat tortilla shell topped with refried beans and cheese. Again, it is a pizza only in the manner of being stuff on top of a flat round thing. When posing the question, I wasn't trying to get into a semantic argument over the definition of pizza. I know that there are many definitions. I was discussing the difference between pizza sauce and pasta sauce. The response was that if you look at pizzas that do not have cheese, you put olive oil in the pizza sauce. What if the pizza does have cheese, which is the case in nearly all pizzas sold in the United States? 97.82.165.112 (talk) 11:13, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
- In the eighties we visited Italy a few times. I never had any problem getting a pizza without tomato sauce - they would do it for any pizza on the menu, just substituting a white sauce. It's the only country I've visited where nobody insists you have to have tomatoes in it for it to be Italian food. DuncanHill (talk) 09:51, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
- Wait, "Place of origin = United States"? Is that correct? I've seen pizza bianca in Italy, and it's listed in List_of_pizza_varieties_by_country#Italy. --Wrongfilter (talk) 09:48, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
- Pizza cook here. For many years, I worked in a test kitchen for a medium-sized chain directly under my Director of Operations who was an Italian-American man from Jersey who imbued me with a fraction of his lifetime of knowledge. His father had operated a bakery in an Italian neighborhood in Southern New Jersey and he worked in Pizza nearly his entire life.
- Most pizza sauce for most styles is canned (ie cooked) from either whole tomatoes (more expensive) or from tomato concentrate (less expensive). One exception is Neapolitan-style pizza which calls for sauce made of freshly crushed tomatoes. Pizzas cooked on both chain ovens (slowest), deck ovens (faster) and traditional clay/brick ovens (fastest) generally cook too quickly for ingredients to receive much "cooking". And ingredient such as sauce is generally not going to lose much water in the quick cooking process.
- To answer your question, the one major difference between pizza sauce and red pasta sauce is that most pizza sauce usually is usually very strongly flavored with dried oregano.
- Shkysnk (talk) 02:05, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
Milwaukee County voting system in 2000 election
editA good portion of Wisconsin counties, had at the time, a mixed voting system. Milwaukee County, also had a mixed system; which one? Can anyone satisfy this curiosity of mine? Thank you very much. 93.41.98.58 (talk) 20:58, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
- I am not clear what your question is. Try asking the county via [4] They have a web form you can fill out, if you don't want to call. RudolfRed (talk) 01:41, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
- The question is, "Among the many mixed electoral systems, which was the specific one used in Milwaukee County, Wisconsin, for the 2000 election?" --Lambiam 11:12, 27 June 2023 (UTC)