Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2015 April 17

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April 17

Transparent umbrellas

Women with transparent umbrellas.

I have only ever seen women and girls use transparent umbrellas. Men and boys use opaque ones. Women and girls use opaque ones too. The picture here is from a cabaret show, but this happens in actual everyday life too, with the umbrellas being used for protection from rain, not for show. Why is this? Or do men and boys use them too? JIP | Talk 17:09, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• I certainly have seen them, although not for a long time, now yo mention it. The difference is usually in the color and style of the handle, and color of the fringe or rib tips. μηδείς (talk) 17:17, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• I was unable to find data on usage of clear umbrellas by age or gender. Sorry. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:20, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• I think males just use umbrellas less in any case. They usually aren't as concerned with a few raindrops messing up their hair or make-up. And, for a total downpour, a rain slicker or at least a coat with a waterproof hat may be more common for men (again the hat only works if you don't care about messing up your hair). Try to picture the Gorton's Fisherman with an umbrella. Another historic reason might be that men were expected to do things like open doors for women, (or, going back far enough, hold the reins while they drive the carriage) which becomes difficult while holding an umbrella. Then we have the ultimate feminine umbrella, the parasol (which of course was never clear, since the purpose was to provide shade). So, umbrellas are barely acceptable for heterosexual men, and they better be basic black at that, not clear (and certainly not pink with lace on the edges). Anything "fancy" seems like it's designed to make a fashion statement. StuRat (talk) 17:25, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• • Not being American, I am unable to picture the Gorton's Fisherman with an umbrella, because I don't know what he looks like, and I only ever learned of his existence from StuRat's reply. Regarding Medeis's comment, does that mean that males use transparent umbrellas too, but with a different style? JIP | Talk 17:28, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, a clear umbrella with a pink handle would be a "girl's" umbrella, while one with a black handle would be a "boy's" umbrella. Also women's umbrellas tend to be domed and smaller, while men's umbrellas tend to be flatter, like furniture umbrellas. Unfortunately a google search has not been very helpful. μηδείς (talk) 18:51, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• See [1]. Our article neglects to show a picture of him. The advertising campaign showed him braving severe storms at sea to bring customers the finest fish, which were then made into God-awful fried fish sticks. StuRat (talk) 17:30, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

In Japan, transparent umbrellas and semi-transparent umbrellas are available for free at convenience stores and railway stations. They are cheap if you buy them, and therefore expendable/disposable, so many people leave them in the designated umbrella racks for other people to pick up if needed, especially during monsoon season, when intense downpours can happen at any moment. They don't offer much protection, because they are generally small. Just before you say this is stealing - this is not the case. If people want to keep their umbrellas, they will take them into the office with them and put them in the designated umbrella racks there, then take them home at the end of the day. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 18:10, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

See Why real men don't use umbrellas, Real men do not carry umbrellas, but also Real Men May Use Umbrellas in (US) Navy Alansplodge (talk) 18:13, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm still afraid neither of the above replies is of any help. I've never been to Japan, so I don't know whether those disposable transparent umbrellas are used more by men or by women. Saying "real men don't use umbrellas" isn't helping. My question is specifically about transparent umbrellas. I've seen plenty of men use opaque umbrellas. I use one myself. The only reasons why I use an opaque umbrella instead of a transparent one is that I haven't even been able to find a place selling transparent umbrellas, and that I use umbrellas for protection from rain, not for show, so I haven't bothered going especially looking for a transparent one. JIP | Talk 18:21, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Apologies; the gist of my post, and StuRat's above, is that using an umbrella can be seen as "too effete" (to quote my last link). Therefore many men will not use an umbrella at all, and those that do will avoid anything that might be considered effeminate. I couldn't find a reference to support this directly; it's just my opinion. Alansplodge (talk) 18:28, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

I have no problem with using an umbrella, and I've never thought any other man would have either. I have never thought of umbrellas being effeminate by default. I've just thought of them being protection against rain. Rain doesn't discriminate by sex or gender. Is the overall opinion here that umbrellas being transparent is effeminate? JIP | Talk 18:31, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

It looks like it may be considered effeminate, but only in some cultures, such as the US. And yes, they serve a practical purpose, but are perhaps less practical than a rain coat with attached hood, as those don't encumber an arm, get blown away in the wind, etc. So, they would seem to somewhat fall into the same category as high heels. Yes, shoes serve a practical purpose, but that particular choice of shoes is not the most practical one, meaning it may at least in part be chosen for it's decorate purposes rather than practical reasons. StuRat (talk) 18:54, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

I otherwise get your point, but there's still the problem with the distinction between opaque and transparent. This distinction has no effect on the use of the umbrella. Whether an umbrella is opaque or transparent has no effect whatsoever on whether it encumbers an arm or gets blown away in the wind. As I said, I've seen plenty of men and women use opaque umbrellas, but only women use transparent ones. The only reason I don't use a transparent one myself is that I haven't even been able to find one, and I don't think it's worth the bother to go especially looking for one. JIP | Talk 18:58, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Well, black seems to be more masculine than clear, at least in the US. Compare a man wearing a black shirt versus a transparent shirt (and note that a transparent shirt even seems less masculine than no shirt at all.) StuRat (talk) 22:02, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Stu's... too sexy for his shirt, too sexy for his shirt, so sexy it hirts? μηδείς (talk) 00:11, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Well, the King is entitled to wear his new clothes. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 07:45, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

(EC) The disposable transparent umbrellas available in Japan are used by anyone who doesn't have an umbrella at that particular time, regardless of gender. British men, regardless of our stereotype of bowler hats and umbrellas, do not usually carry umbrellas. In Japan, though, they are very much certainly necessary during monsoon season, when you don't want to turn up at the office looking like you swam there (It's too hot to wear a coat). Here is a picture of one in action, though not during the monsoon season, I think. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 18:33, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

On umbrellas in the United States, I think that there may be regional and class, as well as gender, dimensions to their use. Where I live, in greater Boston, it rains a lot, and lots of people travel to and from work or go shopping every day by public transportation. That means long walks outside between your subway station and your destination, often in heavy rain. This is not the light drizzly mist that prevails in England. We get twice as much rain as London, though compressed into fewer rainy days. It is not just a matter of getting your hair damp; without some protection, you will get your clothing and shoes thoroughly soaked. So white-collar men with indoor jobs do carry umbrellas here, but ONLY black umbrellas, unless they wish to express a nonstandard gender identity. Men with outdoor jobs (here's where class comes in) and some blue-collar men with indoor jobs wear rain gear instead. I think that this holds for most of the urban Northeast and downtown Chicago, and for San Francisco in the rainy season, but maybe not so much in parts of the United States where most people get around by car and at most make a mad dash from the parking lot to the shopping mall entrance. I have seen transparent umbrellas, but only in the hands of women. Marco polo (talk) 19:12, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• I've seen plenty of men use transparent umbrellas in the USA, albeit mostly on college campuses, and mostly (but not exclusively) Asian men. Here's a few pics I've found online [2] [3] [4]. As for "why?" - Gender norms are weird, often capricious and arbitrary. Why is pink considered feminine, while blue is considered masculine (in some places) - it doesn't have any real logical impetus, and not that long ago those gender associations were opposite in the USA, see e.g. Pink#Gender or here [5]. So use whatever kind of umbrella you like :) (Also, I'm a little disappointed in the strange sexist opinions being presented as fact above, but that's an on-going issue...) SemanticMantis (talk) 20:51, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Where I grew up, purple/magenta/pink, red, orange, and yellow were all considered "girl colors". This seemed intuitively obvious, but I remember wondering why it should be so in elementary school when I was 9 or 10. It wasn't until I studied color theory as a post-grad in its relation to epistemology that I realized all the "girl colors" are saturated in red in the RGB color scheme. See sexual availability. (Notice, also, red ties/hankies were once a flaming sign of homosexuality among men. Also, lipstick lesbian does not refer to black lipstick. μηδείς (talk) 21:11, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Still not buying it. Lots of men wear read too [6] [7] [8], and men have reddish/pinkish bits too, just like women. Here's a manly man in a red "dress" [9]. But this is far off topic of umbrellas; I was just pointing out another arbitrary gender association. SemanticMantis (talk) 22:01, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

You're not buying what I'm not selling. Hero is perhaps my favorite movie of all time, but the color in that screen capture is misrepresented, and that is not a dress, but a robe in English usage. While red might have been a "girl" color, a girl wearing a black dress was not considered butch. In fact, I kissed one. Several. μηδείς (talk) 00:15, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Well regardless, SemanticMantis has a good point that there is clearly a very strong cultural component here and little realy evidence that these associations are anything other than cultural associations with no biological basis. Definitely when someone of Chinese descent (whether from China, Malaysia, New Zealand or wherever) wears read during the Lunar New Year, it's probably not an indication they are gay or trying to advertise their sexual availability. For that matter, when the leader of New Zealand Labour Party wears red to the TV debate, it probably isn't either. When the king of Thailand or his supporters wear yellow neither. Then of course, there's also the fact that pink (and the fierd red) was probably a more masculine colour than blue in the early 20th century and before in much of the West. Nil Einne (talk) 10:55, 19 April 2015 (UTC)