Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2013 December 21
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December 21
edit[Comments violating BLP removed. The question can still be answered, and regards the US politician. μηδείς (talk) 01:22, 21 December 2013 (UTC)]
- Laying low. I can find no news about him using Google News since early 2013, and he does not maintain an official webpage. His campaign website has not been updated since the 2012 election, and his twitter and facebook feeds are similarly moribund. --Jayron32 01:41, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
- Whom is he laying low? -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 01:54, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
- Jack, this is one of my spouse's pet peeves, seen on plenty of television shows. I point you too to meaning number nine "(intransitive, nonstandard) to lie (be in a horizontal or resting position)". I don't expect this to be any more successful here either :-) ---Sluzzelin talk 01:59, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
- Jack's comment should be followed by a "rimshot" sound effect. As regards the "BLP violation", it would have been sufficient for the OP to say that Akin's comments triggered controversy and very possibly cost him his chance to win the senate election. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:07, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
- Jack, this is one of my spouse's pet peeves, seen on plenty of television shows. I point you too to meaning number nine "(intransitive, nonstandard) to lie (be in a horizontal or resting position)". I don't expect this to be any more successful here either :-) ---Sluzzelin talk 01:59, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
- Whom is he laying low? -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 01:54, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
- Akin seems to have made an attempt to launch himself as a voice of conservatism last spring, as this story and [http://www.wnd.com/2013/05/republicans-and-america-need-conservatives/#Y8YP8ccRFTEXFTJg.99 this piece by Akin] indicate. However, I could find nothing more recent about him. He has 5,000+ followers on Twitter. He is 67 years old and although he is not very wealthy, his Congressional pension would allow him to live fairly comfortably without seeking employment. Marco polo (talk) 19:02, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
- He is receiving donations for the 2018 Senate primaries.[1] -- Jreferee (talk) 12:25, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
Best one-one hand-grip to lift a falling person.
editImagine someone's about to fall to his death. You and he can only hold on to each other with one hand to the other's arm/hand. What is the strongest grip by which to do so? Hands around each other's wrists? Fingers hooked into fingers? Something else? Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 21:50, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
- Hands round wrists, then, once that breaks, fingers into fingers. Or get a constrictor to help. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:10, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
- This is assuming they are naked. One can get a better grip on an item of clothing. Jackie Chan is an exception. He could, if he wanted to, hold a 20st man on the nail of his little pinky – but that is cinematographic license. Likewise, a full screen close up of a hand-to-hand gripe... slowly slipping... as the heroin is about to fall to her untimely death (before the film is even half over) helps to increase (yawn) the suspense. --Aspro (talk) 22:54, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
- Unless the victim bought their jacket in Hollywood, where the sleeve always seems to rip off allowing the owner to fall to their doom. Seriously, wrist-gripping-wrist is stronger, because you then have two people holding on if the victim is concious; if not, you've still got something that you can get your whole fist around. It's the recommended grip on any of the rescue courses that I've been on - BCU Canoe Safety, BCU Whitewater Safety and many moons ago, RLSS Bronze Medallion. I found this picture of a rescue from ice using the wrist grip, and this instructional diagram. Alansplodge (talk) 00:41, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
- Hand-to-arm/hand, not to clothing, is the scenario. To clothing might be best, but there's no way to give a "definitive" answer in such a case. TRM's suggestion seems intuitive, but I suspect the double hands on wrists grip might be weaker than it looks given the angle that puts the grips at. I was wondering if maybe only the stronger partner grasping the weaker around the wrist with a much tighter grip and better angle might work. I was hoping there might actually be some reference to cite on this. μηδείς (talk) 00:48, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
- Unless the victim bought their jacket in Hollywood, where the sleeve always seems to rip off allowing the owner to fall to their doom. Seriously, wrist-gripping-wrist is stronger, because you then have two people holding on if the victim is concious; if not, you've still got something that you can get your whole fist around. It's the recommended grip on any of the rescue courses that I've been on - BCU Canoe Safety, BCU Whitewater Safety and many moons ago, RLSS Bronze Medallion. I found this picture of a rescue from ice using the wrist grip, and this instructional diagram. Alansplodge (talk) 00:41, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
- This is fine in theory, because the first thing a victim does is stretches forth their hand. But say... you come across a car crash and the automobile is on fire and the occupant(s) has a clavicle fracture. Are they going to stretch out their arm? There may be only seconds... for you to get them out PDQ. If they have a clavicle fracture, then pulling on their wrist can rip the blood vessels. Now you (or rather they) have a problem, that whilst you have saved them from an inferno, they now have internal haemorrhage and plummeting blood pressure. Fine, if you live in a big city were the ambulance can arrive in a few minutes and the para-medics can stabilize the condition you brought about. Questions to ask is :How did this John Doe get into a situation that lead him into the situation where he is about to fall to his death? Was he drunk, or due to an earthquake, terrorist bomb? If is is injured, then an upward force on the upper limbs can inhibit breathing (like the way crucifixion suffocates). If he is a victim of fire, then his skin can slip off like a glove. When there is only seconds to spare, is the girl guide approach, the approach that you would like your rescuers to adopt? --Aspro (talk) 02:19, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
- What in the world are you talking about? Your link to Girl Guide would be helpful if it answered the effing question. I have defined the circumstance--one person trying to keep another from falling, with one hand/arm holding on to to one hand/arm. Earthquake is irrelevant, and drunkenness may figure in your answer but it has nothing to do with the question. μηδείς (talk) 02:30, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
- I found TV Tropes - Take My Hand, which discusses the use of Medeis's scenario in films and television. Both the images that I linked above were from instructional websites, so could be taken as references, although they both refer to people who have fallen through ice. I couldn't find any organisation that provides training for holding people who are falling off buildings or cliffs. I did once fall off a cliff myself in a whiteout in the Scottish Highlands, and can't imagine how it would have been possible to hold on to anybody or anything on the way over (fortunately, it was onto angled snow ice and I was able to apply an ice axe arrest). One often sees in films, the hero grabbing hold of a branch or the cornice of a building on the way down - I would imagine that once your body starts falling, your own
massweight is magnified many times by the momentum and that fingers aren't going to slow you down, let alone stop you. I wonder if there has ever been a real example of a "cliff-hanger"? Alansplodge (talk) 10:49, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
- I found TV Tropes - Take My Hand, which discusses the use of Medeis's scenario in films and television. Both the images that I linked above were from instructional websites, so could be taken as references, although they both refer to people who have fallen through ice. I couldn't find any organisation that provides training for holding people who are falling off buildings or cliffs. I did once fall off a cliff myself in a whiteout in the Scottish Highlands, and can't imagine how it would have been possible to hold on to anybody or anything on the way over (fortunately, it was onto angled snow ice and I was able to apply an ice axe arrest). One often sees in films, the hero grabbing hold of a branch or the cornice of a building on the way down - I would imagine that once your body starts falling, your own
- Perhaps if they are on a slope, and start to slide down it, somebody else might grab hold of them as they slowly slide by. But I agree that a fall off the classic cliff isn't likely to be arrested. StuRat (talk) 21:22, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
- I didn't ask what would happen if you grabbed somone falling past you. The question is, what is the best grip to use to prevent him falling straight down to his death. No clothes or acceleration or slope or ice is assumed in the question--solely, what is the strongest grip to hold him up. μηδείς (talk) 22:11, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
- My point is that any scenario where somebody has got into a position where they are suspended by their hands or fingers above a big drop seems infinitely improbable, given the laws of physics. Probably for that reason, I can't find you a reference, but it's not through lack of trying. However, if such a thing were to ever happen, which I seriously doubt, my answer stands. I have a little more knowledge and training than the average man on the Clapham omnibus (the English equivalent of "John Doe"). Alansplodge (talk) 23:23, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
- I'll still hold out hope there's an answer. I think the double-wrist grip probably fails due to the weakest-link principle and the fact that the oblique angles weaken the grip. It seems odd we have an article on that poorly-named game-show, but none on the physical principle. μηδείς (talk) 03:08, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
- Okay, the internet is your oyster. A very merry Christmas to you and yours. Alansplodge (talk) 10:50, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
- I'd hold the person around the wrist with my hand if I weren't able to grab their clothes. I'd have a good chance of lifting them up with one hand that way. Both trying to hold each other around the wrist wouldn't give a good grip and wouldn't work properly for lifting. Dmcq (talk) 15:15, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
- I'll still hold out hope there's an answer. I think the double-wrist grip probably fails due to the weakest-link principle and the fact that the oblique angles weaken the grip. It seems odd we have an article on that poorly-named game-show, but none on the physical principle. μηδείς (talk) 03:08, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
- My point is that any scenario where somebody has got into a position where they are suspended by their hands or fingers above a big drop seems infinitely improbable, given the laws of physics. Probably for that reason, I can't find you a reference, but it's not through lack of trying. However, if such a thing were to ever happen, which I seriously doubt, my answer stands. I have a little more knowledge and training than the average man on the Clapham omnibus (the English equivalent of "John Doe"). Alansplodge (talk) 23:23, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
- I didn't ask what would happen if you grabbed somone falling past you. The question is, what is the best grip to use to prevent him falling straight down to his death. No clothes or acceleration or slope or ice is assumed in the question--solely, what is the strongest grip to hold him up. μηδείς (talk) 22:11, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
- This is a clear example of medical advice.
- Answering the OP´s query re person X preventing person Y from falling is clearly requiring:
- a) making a diagnosis: Person Y is subject to gravitational forces
- b) providing a prognosis: falling n metres may be lethal
- c) proposing a therapy: palliative treatment of gravitational attraction
- d) risking bodily harm (and possible death) for X and Y by providing a false answer
- --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 23:06, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
- Snicker. μηδείς (talk) 00:20, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
- In my youth I did a little bit of judo an aikido. I can testify, that a naked opponent can be very slippery (I think is was based on coconut oil). It made you depend on your legs more, to create a fall. Second. Lateral displacement of an earthquake can be so severe, as to throw on off one's feet (and perhaps.... over the edge) – by that time you get to them... dangling-off-the-edge, they might be mighty sweaty -and slippery. One can wrap one's hands around clothing and get a far better grip! It is the difference between theory and practice. But hey: As Alansplodge points out, what are the chances, that you come across a person in this situation, where the victim bought their jacket in Hollywood and has sprayed himself in antiperspirant? If you can get a good wrist grip fine... but if you can't - what then? Unlike in the movies, when a crisis happens, there is no director to slow the action down to afford the cinematographer to capture a few dozen frames, of the heroin and hero locking hands (and in close up). When thing go wrong and badly wrong. I can assure you, there is no time to consult Wikipedia! --Aspro (talk) 23:29, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
- Or a drunkard, for that matter. μηδείς (talk) 01:34, 25 December 2013 (UTC)