Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2011 September 30

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September 30

wikiHow

Does wikiHow have any policies similiar to the Wikipedia policy of “Not Censored”? 75.6.243.251 (talk) 00:15, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

I see nothing here to suggest they do. --Mr.98 (talk) 00:35, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

How about Wikipedia's “Assume Good Faith” or “Not A Soapbox (and/or) Means of Promotion”? 75.6.243.251 (talk) 00:58, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia has many writeups describing its various policies. Does wikiHow not have similar writeups? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:02, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Uhh, I don't know, that's why I came here to find out... 75.6.243.251 (talk) 01:06, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

This list of wikiHow Objectionable Images seems inconsistent with a "Not Censored" policy. John M Baker (talk) 01:11, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Ah, so I guess I can rule that out. What about the others? 75.6.243.251 (talk) 01:13, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

They have a few policies here, but their approach is to establish an intentionally minimal number of policies. John M Baker (talk) 01:32, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Okay. 75.6.243.251 (talk) 01:36, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

You can see what policies they have at the page I originally linked to. --Mr.98 (talk) 11:12, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Why is gold so valuable?

Why has gold always been so highly valued, especially in ancient times (in modern times it at least has some use as a good electrical and thermal conductor)? You can't eat it, it's not hard enough to make weapons to hunt for food or to make tools for other purposes, you can't build a shelter with it, it doesn't float. I don't see how mere rarity without practical value would have been any use to ancient peoples. It may look pretty but you can starve to death or die of exposure looking pretty. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Callerman (talk • contribs) 00:48, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

The Gold article has some suggestions about it. It's been valued since before recorded history. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:55, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

A few thoughts:

1. Your "deficits" of why gold shouldn't be valuable are actually all great reasons it should be a form of currency. Currencies based on food, weapons, and shelter are not really very good currencies — that's just a form of bartering. A neutral currency with a known value (tacked, as the case of gold usually is, to the rate of production) lets you do more complicated transactions than otherwise. (What, you don't want my fish? All I have is fish! What do I do now?)

2. It's not clear that gold was overwhelmingly valued by all people at all times in the same way. The Incas valued it a lot less than the Spanish did, for example, and found the Spanish lust for gold to be laughable. (Everything's fun and games until the smallpox sets in.) Once there is a stabilized market for gold — e.g., people you know will buy it — then it can become more valuable to everybody who has it. Until then, its value will be based on exactly who you are selling it to.

3. You seem to be imagining hunter-gatherer types on the Savannah valuing gold. That's highly unlikely. They wouldn't have had access to much of it, in any case. Mining requires a high degree of organization, and there's only so much gold lying around waiting for you to pick it up without any processing. I suspect that gold was not especially valuable until more organized mining and metalworking was possible. Our gold article indicates that it has been known to be used by the Chalcolithic or copper age, which is pretty dang civilized as far as human development is concerned, even if it looks primitive from a modern standpoint. These aren't people living in bamboo huts and acting out some kind of parody of the "savage" — these are people who live in organized communities with leaders of some sort and make most of their calories based on farming, which allows them to support people who are full-time artisans or blacksmiths or miners and things like that.

4. In the end, things are valuable if people find them valuable. That's tautological, but true. If there's a guy willing to buy something of yours for a good price, you'll probably be willing to sell it to him for that price, even if you think it is worth a lot less. --Mr.98 (talk) 01:05, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Gold is pretty and resists corruption and causes few allergies, this makes it great for jewellery. Gold is easily worked, making it more desirable to work for decoration than, say, steel. Gold has interesting conductive properties for electricity. Finally gold is a commodity within which all other commodities find their value reflection (see Volume 1 Chapters 1-3 of Das Kapital). This makes gold, like the US dollar, or the Euro, or the Australian Dollar, or negotiable US bonds, or certain shares useable as currency. Unlike other currencies listed, many people (falsely) believe gold to have an "inherent" value as money. But gold as money does have some advantages: it isn't contingent upon the survival of particular states, it is dense and so highly portable, it is easily divided with a chisel making it readily negotiable. Historically some of these reasons were more important than others. "Before recorded history" wealth meant either possessing the military power to directly exploit villages, or possessing masses of slaves—here gold had a decorative purpose based on its lustre. In feudal societies gold was as much decorative as it was financial, it was used to resolve rare high value trades between rulers (such as ransoming a King stupid enough to get caught in battle), but people also valued it for its displays in cloth of gold etc. In contemporary society gold is both a currency (rarely directly traded, usually traded on certificates of ownership that amount to goldsmith's notes), but it is also highly valued for decorative purposes. Silver is more interesting given the vast decorative demand out of India. Fifelfoo (talk) 03:29, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

It's as intrinsically valuable as any fiat currency is (or as much as currencies backed by other precious metals) outside of the small but significant intrinsic uses (gold has some good industrial properties in electronics, etc.). The special place for gold as a precious metal though is interesting. Some have suggested that the difficulty and random nature of gold finds helped maintain some price stability, although I've heard alternative variations of the same thing too. This book: The gold standard in theory and history, Barry J. Eichengreen, Marc Flandreau, has a lot of background on the historic gold standard.

It's also true that gold's emergence as a currency standard is rather recent. Historically it was silver until the 1880s, with Britain being a prime exception. Shadowjams (talk) 11:11, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Also note the historic value of salt in ancient times - it would still be valuable if it were not so common. Collect (talk) 11:29, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Also kind of hard to mint coins from. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:32, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but we only use coins because we use precious metals as money. If we used something else, we would store it in another manner more appropriate to that form, such as bags of salt, or perhaps a salt certificate for larger quantities. StuRat (talk) 11:56, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

I think one factor in gold's favor is that it looks different, being yellow. There are more silver-colored or grey metals than you can shake a stick at, bringing down their value. StuRat (talk) 11:56, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, darn that worthless platinum, rhodium and iridium. Googlemeister (talk) 13:48, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Considering that silver was, for centuries, used even more frequently as currency than gold (owing to some rather large deposits that were discovered), I think that argument is fairly specious (pun intended). The fact that copper has never been so valuable as gold makes the argument even less likely. People who care about metals can distinguish between the various silver colored metals quite easily, and have been able to do so for a very long time. --Mr.98 (talk) 15:55, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

As already noted, gold is pretty, rare, and easily worked . But the suggestion that it is valuable because it makes a good medium of exchange is bassackward. Its high value (among other characteristics) makes it good a good medium of exchange. Also, note that not everyone has to be crazy about gold for it to function this way. So long as some people value it highly it is valuable to you as long as you can trade it. So the answer is, because a good number of people really like it.μηδείς (talk) 03:41, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Kind of circular logic, but that is economics for you. Googlemeister (talk) 16:34, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

MeHag tattoo

A colleague has just come back from a doctor's appointment in Southsea, UK. In the waiting room he sat behind a woman who had 'MeHag' tattooed on the back of her neck. He could come up with no explanation for this, and couldn't pluck up the courage to ask her. He maintains it was certainly MeHag, and there was no possibility of the H being two L's etc. Does anyone have any idea what this could signify? Perhaps it was you? FreeMorpheme (talk) 12:24, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Were they diagnosed with a disease which causes people to tattoo nonsense on their neck ? :-) StuRat (talk) 15:02, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

There's a lot of it about. I just wonder if, despite your colleague's certainty, the H is actually an N, and the tattoo is a mangled version of "Megan". AndrewWTaylor (talk) 15:10, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Looks like a misspelt Klingon word. Did she have a funny forehead ridge?μηδείς (talk) 03:34, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Could it be her name, Me.. Hag.. shortened? Unlikely to be able to rule that out. Or the name of a loved one, I suppose. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 14:54, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Could try emailing MeHag@various email providers.com and ask for help.μηδείς (talk) 22:57, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

I personally find it difficult to believe that no-one has tried this. It seems like a popular net name. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 16:11, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

I did but I wasn't sure why the person would spell it MeHag. The results seem to suggest it is a real name not simply a net name Nil Einne (talk) 12:28, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Titration

why is only 2 or 3 drops of an indicator is add in a simple acid-base titration. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.204.38.2 (talk) 12:42, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Try reading Acid–base titration and maybe pH indicator. --Colapeninsula (talk) 13:40, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

What 19th-century ethnic hat is this?

What kind of hat is this? Better yet name the painting that this chromolithograph is based on. Sorry that the image has been collaged over - at least you can see the hats. I feel like I know but now I can't place it. Thanks in advance. (I asked this on Humanities but haven't gotten the right answer yet. Ruled out so far: an Ochipok; Hennins). Saudade7 18:10, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't know, but I think you'll get better answers for this question at the Humanities desk. --Belchman (talk) 09:25, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't know the hat or the original, but the collage is actually from 1942, by Kurt Schwitters, titled Merz 42 (Like an Old Master). See here (volume 83, hover over the image for the artist and title). ---Sluzzelin talk 10:24, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

You might receive more information from the Sprengel Museum (the pdf-file on this site is a form for inquiries on Schwitters' works). ---Sluzzelin talk 10:35, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Alas yes, I came here after no one at the Humanities desk knew (see original post up there), and I know it is from Schwitters and I am asking for a Schwitters scholar who is trying to identify this picture. I thought I would just start by identifying that hat. It's kind of crazy that this hat is so hard to identify. Maybe there is an international ethnic hat and folk costume museum? Thanks for the suggestions, Saudade7 15:48, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

The reason I didn't know you were aware it was by Schwitters is because the file summary of the image offers no indication of the work's title or artist, and states "Pre-1900 image used in pre-1920 collage" when in fact the collage is from 1942 (it is also signed "KS 42").

The only more specific reference I found regarding the original was in Bilderstreit und Büchersturm: medienkritische Überlegungen zu Übermalung und Überschreibung im 20. Jahrhundert (Birgit Mersmann, Königshausen & Neumann, 1999, ISBN 9783826014123). On page 60, she writes: "in Like an Old Master [...] he uses an 18th-century, as yet unidentified genre painting from the Munich School, which, in turn, is an imitation of a Dutch master." (my unauthorized translation). Maybe it has been identified in the past 12 years, and I still think the Sprengel Museum's Schwitter Archives might be your best bet. ---Sluzzelin talk 06:14, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Sluzzelin talk - yes, I didn't want to focus on the Schwitters in my ID just because my focus was on the print he used. I didn't want to get into copyright territory by presenting the entire work by Schwitters - and because I was only wanting to use the image here in the Reference Desk query. My friend has done archival work at the Sprengel Museum archives and I am sure that what you provide is the state of current knowledge about the source material. So I wanted just to come here to the Reference desk and ask about the hat as a different path to identification that did not channel back into the Schwitters literature. To find fresh eyes, as it were. Of course you could not know this and so you were very good to make the Schwitters connection - unfortunately that connection is just where the dead end is for the literature. And so I am just looking for an identification for the hat, or better yet the print that was used in the collage. Thanks for your help though. I do not mean to seem ungrateful :-) Saudade7 02:22, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

No worries, you certainly didn't (seem ungrateful, sorry if I sounded a bit snippy :-). I guess I just felt stupid, but there are worse feelings. Anyway, I had fun trying to locate the original painting, even if I didn't succeed. ---Sluzzelin talk 14:04, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Ahahaha! You were NOT stupid! Only too Smart!! :-) Saudade7 22:27, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Facebook Notification

Everytime a friend's birthday comes up, FB notifies me a week ahead via email, and then, on his/her birthday, FB asks me to wish him/her after I log in. Well, I don't want anything similar happening when my birthday comes knocking. I don't want my friends (those who don't already know) to be notified about my birthday. I tried changing my date of birth to a date we've already passed by this year, but FB gave me an automated warning that I can change my date of birth a limited number of times. So, my question is: is it possible to prevent your friends from getting notifications about your birthday without tampering with your D.o.B in your profile? 223.190.208.203 (talk) 18:15, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

On your profile page, click Edit Profile. On the first page that comes up, Birthday is the 4th line. Set to "Do not show my birthday in my profile". It might have been quicker to look for this than to ask... --Saalstin (talk) 20:54, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

If you're concerned by this kind of things happening, your best bet is to avoid Facebook altogether. --Belchman (talk) 22:08, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, I did do that. But I'm not sure that even when people are blocked from seeing my d.o.b, they'll be blocked from getting notifications about it. And, boycotting FB is not really an option for me, since it's the most crucial tool for my social networking and helps me keep in touch with whatever is going on in college, and whatnot. But I'd really like it if gazillions on half-known college acquaintances I'm not close to keep pouncing on me and wishing me "happy birthday" just because they'd happened to get the notification that morning. =_=" 223.177.242.93 (talk) 08:08, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

So delete your birthday then! --TammyMoet (talk) 08:18, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

You can't delete your birthday in FB. They need to know how old you are, and whether you are a minor, so filling in the date of birth is mandatory. 223.181.208.252 (talk) 08:58, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Maybe you could change the date to February 29 so you'd only be bothered once every four years? Matt Deres (talk) 12:18, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

I've just done this myself. Next to the date of birth is a symbol. Click that and change the setting to "Only me". That should do it. Another thing to think about - I sometimes get notifications from people who want to add my birthday to My Calendar. Check to see if you've got this app in your Facebook, and delete the app. --TammyMoet (talk) 12:40, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

What Tammy said. I don't care much about my birthday and often forget my own age. I've had it hidden for a couple years now and have never been wished a happy birthday by anyone who didn't already know (e.g. close family). Dismas|^(talk) 23:32, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Business ideas

For a book I am working on, anyone want to suggest something that a fifteen year old girl could do to earn a bit of money. It needs to involve something they won at a raffle, though what that is does not matter, so long as it is realistic. I thought something to do with making food or drinks, though I have heard that involves certain regulations and licensing and such like.

148.197.80.214 (talk) 20:15, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

She could win a bicycle and do deliveries. Googlemeister (talk) 20:50, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Maybe a sweet sewing machine and she either repairs local's clothing or she makes new odd, yet fashionable, clothing out of people's old clothes and sells them at the local market. Public awareness (talk) 22:06, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Those suggestions will get her arrested for unlicensed commercial vehicle operation and running a sweatshop in a zoned residential area. μηδείς (talk) 03:28, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Depends where you live. There's no requirement for bicycle licencing even for delivery people in NZ. She may need a bicycle helmet though Nil Einne (talk) 07:35, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Is this in America? Because God knows the British police can be arseholes at times, but arresting a girl for using a sewing machine with business intent? Really? Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 11:59, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

The OP is in the UK, the girl would no doubt be a [sole trader], no registration/permits, just go to work. There is nothing like [this] in the UK or Canada. Permits/licensing is only for certain areas, like taxi, electrician, nuclear plant owner, etc.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Public awareness (talk • contribs) 19:21, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

A sole trader would be an option, of course. She would only have to do her first year's tax reports after 18+ months of trading (depending on what month she started), and would not have to become VAT registered until she earns £60,000 a year. These little complications (including doing hours of tax reports - tell her to get an accountant) may not be within the scope of the book, though, depending on the time-frame involved. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 16:05, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

What's a "sweet" sewing machine, Public awarness? -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 09:17, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Could be a sweet Singer.  Card Zero  (talk) 14:26, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps PA is thinking of a sewing machine make out of sugar? Or may be one of these [1] Nil Einne (talk) 18:45, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

I just wanted an alliteration I guess, fancy, cool, neeto, groovy, spectacular, hip, fly, pretty, gnarly, awesome, amazing, pimpin', non-dull, just don't flow as nice. Public awareness (talk) 19:12, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Is there a book called something like "50 Ways to Make Money from Stuff You Have At Home"? She could win that... --TammyMoet (talk) 08:18, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps she could win one of those new fangled personal computers and start selling things on that ebay thingamabob? Quintessential British Gentleman (talk) 15:32, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

She could win a RepRap, I can't guarantee she would make money off it though. I presume we're talking short term. You could obviously come up with something like she wins a book on biology which cements an interest in biology leading to her eventually getting her PhD in something in biology and eventually and goes on to form a biotech company becoming the next Bill Gates. I wouldn't say this is completely unrealistic but it would be a 15-20 year concept at a minimum. (You could perhaps change biology to something to do with robots and forget about the PhD.) Nil Einne (talk) 18:43, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

One of the items one can make with duct tape.

The daughter of a friend of mine buys fancy colored duct tape at a craft store which she uses to make wallets and other items which she sells at a profit. I can't find any articles here, but suggest you look at this search: http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=duct+tape+crafts+for+girls&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 μηδείς (talk) 19:17, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Just to check, in the UK, is there any law that says you can't make and sell food without certain permits and complex higeine checks? 148.197.80.214 (talk) 20:44, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Loads, starting with the Food Safety Act 1990. However, since 2006 the laws have been made simpler and less stringent. If, for example, people wish to sell home-made cakes at a village fete, that is now allowed: environmental health officers are encouraged to turn a blind eye to it. However, I'd still be worried about being sued if someone's case of food poisoning turned out to be directly caused by the cake I'd made! This site gives more detail. --TammyMoet (talk) 21:07, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

There is a story just about every week in the US of children being forced to shut down their lemonade stands. In fact, it happens so often that if you type "police lem" in google it will suggest you are looking for police lemonade stand. As I said above, have her sell wallets and other knick-knacks made from a case of assorted duct tape rolls she won. μηδείς (talk) 22:51, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

The classic is babysitting, if you've got a fairly mature 15 year old and a motivated mother, or family friend with small children, to get you started. She could win a book on child development, or childcare, or a first aid course, or something. Or, she could win something that smaller children think is fun, accidentally befriend some small children at the raffle event, and be asked to babysit by their mother or father. Then it spreads by word of mouth. 86.163.1.168 (talk) 20:49, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Lough Erin

I have been listening to one of my favourite tunes "Lough Erin Shore" and am now wondering if there is anywhere in Ireland or Northern Ireland a Lough Erin? If not, where could the song title be referring to? Simply south...... creating lakes for 5 years 23:47, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

You may want to see our article on Lough Erne. This appears to be what the song is referring to. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 00:07, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

We have an article Lough Erin Shore which redirects to Gleanntáin Ghlas' Ghaoth Dobhair. The English lyrics in our article don't mention Lough Erin at all, but refer to the "glens of Ghaoth Dobhair" which means "the aqueous estuary" and is Anglacized to Gweedore in County Donegal. Where Lough Erin comes into it is a mystery. Alansplodge (talk) 08:20, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

D'oh! Our redirect seems to be in error... Lough Erin Shore is quite different. However, here are the same lyrics but with a the title Lough Erne's Shore, so "Lough Erin" is propbly an oft repeated error - KageTora was right. We have a page on Erin but there doesn't seem to be a Lough Erin. Alansplodge (talk) 09:35, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

I found a lake actually called Lough-Erin in the 18th century. Mentioned (and explicitly differentiated from the twin lakes of Lough Erne) in The Antient and Present State of the County of Down (1757) and The universal gazetteer (1795). Assumed from similarity to descriptions (near Annahilt two miles to the northeast, triangular, before the Bow lakes and a certain Lake Henney close to Saintfield, famous for its fish) to the 1960 Official Guide to Hillsborough, to now be the lake known as Ballykeel Lougherne (Google Maps).

But then again, we come across a ballad purportedly based on real circumstances in Northwest Ireland, "The Admired Love-Song of William and Eliza, of Lough-Erin Shore" discussed by Charles Dickens in 1852. The story is about an Irish farmer falling in love with an English lady. They elope to Dublin and then to London (thus leaving Ireland). The lady comforts him with:

For three months in great consolation [says William]

This lady she did me adore,

Saying, my Willy, do not be uneasy

For leaving Lough-Erin shore

The song ends with them getting married and returning to Ireland. In both mentions of 'Lough-Erin Shore', it is clear that it does not refer to a specific lake, but to Ireland itself. I don't speak Irish obviously, but is there a possibility that it may not mean "Lake Erin's shores" but instead "The shores of [the bays of] Ireland"?-- Obsidi♠n Soul 12:37, 1 October 2011 (UTC)