Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2022 May 8

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May 8

The letter J and sound /j/

Which is the reason that English is the only Germanic language where the letter J does not represent the /j/ sound? Has the letter J ever represented the /j/ sound in history on English? --40bus (talk) 11:22, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

As noted in that J article you cited, the English "J" comes from the French "J", i.e. not from the Germanic "J". Keep in mind that modern English is a hybrid, not purely Germanic at all. When an English "J" is pronounced like a "Y", it's typically a loanword. Examples that come to mind immediately are the song "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring", and also the line from "Little Drummer Boy" that says "Baby Jesu, pah-rum-pah-pum-pum..." --←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:27, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

I suspect those examples are stylistic choices: in the UK I have mostly (though not always) heard "Jesu" in hymns pronounced with a "jay" (not "yay") sound, including in my own Methodist secondary ('high') school. Similarly, in some oratorios "Jerusalem" is sometimes sung with a "yay" but often with a "jay". As you imply, it's all the fault of those pesky Normans. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.208.88.97 (talk) 12:15, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes, the tradition is (in the Church of England at least) that "Jesu" in English-language texts is pronounced with the same "J" as "Jesus", but in Latin texts with a "Y" sound. A better example might have been "fjord", which ought only to have one pronunciation, although I have heard "ford" before. Alansplodge (talk) 17:13, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

It's a fairly modern innovation to retain foreign pronunciations in English on loan words; besides the above note on the Bach composition, Don Juan by Byron famously pronounced "JEW-won" and not with the standard Spanish pronunciation. --Jayron32 13:52, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

It is closer to the French "J", but also distinct from it. In French, the J letter is pronounced /ʒ/ (the sound of the "s" in the English word "measure") while in English is is pronounced /dʒ/. The difference is the addition of the "stop" at the front of the English sound, making it an affricate, while the French sound is a fricative. The sound English uses is fairly unique among European languages. Also, linguistics is not physics; things are not pre-destined to happen for reasons that are determined by immutable laws of the universe. A lot of linguistic change is arbitrary in the sense that it could not have been predicted, though sometimes an ex-post-facto analysis can be done to understand some kinds of linguistic changes (i.e. Grimm's law or the great vowel shift.) However, not every phonological change happens for a reason. --Jayron32 11:40, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Jayron32 -- The French sound was actually [dʒ] back when French spelling practices influenced English ones. French pronunciation has changed since then, while English pronunciation hasn't (with respect to that sound). Also, Italian has [dʒ]. It's a fairly common end-result of the palatalization of [g] in various languages (though French [dʒ] did not mainly originate in that way). AnonMoos (talk) 19:54, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

That's good to know. Thanks for clarifying! I knew that the French and English sound were distinct, but had switched up the chronology. --Jayron32 13:03, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

It's parallel to English being influenced by French to use "ch" for [tʃ], but of course "ch" is now pronounced [ʃ] in French... AnonMoos (talk) 21:51, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

40bus -- "I" and "J" didn't really become distinct letters until the 17th century (before that time, they were basically swash glyph variants), and similarly "U" and "V", so it's not like there was some common Germanic history of "J" which English departed from. Prior to the 17th century, it was about the consonantal value of "I", and English orthographic practices were influenced by French orthographic practices, as mentioned... AnonMoos (talk) 16:52, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

And our Welsh friends never use a "j" at all (except in loanwords). Alansplodge (talk) 17:13, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

By the way, as recently as 1886, Kate Greenaway published "An Old Fashioned Alphabet Book" which left out the letter I, because she knew that more people at that time would say "How charmingly quaint!" than "Why did that crazy woman leave out a letter?"... -- AnonMoos (talk) 17:14, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

What is the name of the following Arabic phenomenon?

The phenomenon I’m talking about is the one in which nouns are changed a bit to show possession. For example, the word for book is كتاب.

The word “كتابي” means “my book”. “كتابك” means “your book”.

Sincerely, Primal Groudon (talk) 22:15, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

See Possessive affix for Arabic and also similar constructions in other languages. —Amble (talk) 23:29, 8 May 2022 (UTC)