Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2019 July 3

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July 3

Fill your boots

What is the origin of this idiom, which I understand to mean "help yourselves from an abundant supply"? I think I had heard it was likely to have originated in the British Army, but I can't recall why. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:13, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

The obvious origin would be if they filled their pockets and had so much left over they started cramming it in their boots. For most items, this would either require loose-fitting boots or that they not be on their feet at the time, although flat items, like gold coins, could even be fit into snug boots. (The "fill your boots" expression I'm familiar with means "replace you", as in "he's not able to fill your boots".) SinisterLefty (talk) 15:20, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The OED has two senses of the idiom in their Third Edition draft additions of June 2013. The older one is to take over someone's job (and the derivation is obvious), but it doesn't give an origin for your more recent meaning. The earliest cite is from 1969: British colloquial. to fill one's boots: to take full advantage of an opportunity to benefit oneself; to take as much as one wants of something. The more usual expression is to fill one's pockets, so I don't know how it gets transferred to boots. Can anyone else help? Dbfirs 15:27, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I'm also familiar with that other "step into his shoes" meaning. But I was interested if any actual specific origin. Perhaps there wasn't one. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:29, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Looting is commonplace in war. (Though of course only the other side does it. Our boys? Never.) Boots may be larger than pockets. Walking with coins and jewelry in one's boots is less comfortable than walking with the same in one's pockets. Talk of resorting to boot-storage makes looting sound more fanatical. And so the metaphor becomes a little more striking. -- Hoary (talk) 22:55, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

"Though of course only the other side does it. Our boys? Never." Only in recent times. Traditionally, looting was an accepted part of being a soldier, and a reason to join up. I once read the memoir of a soldier in the Napoleonic Wars which described how when an officer saw him searching the bodies of dead French soldiers for loot, advised him to check the inside the lining of their coats, as they often hid coins there. And it was normal in naval warfare for the value of captured ships to be divided among the officers and crew of the ships that captured them. Iapetus (talk) 09:03, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. Although there is a difference between looting invading soldiers and looting civilians in a nation you invaded. In modern times, the first case seems far more acceptable, especially if there's no way to return his possessions to his family. But there's a risk that stopping to loot dead soldiers could get you killed, as you can't be at your most vigilant at the time and would make yourself a prime target for any snipers. And arguments between soldiers over the division of loot could also turn deadly. So there are many reasons to ban this practice. As far as "living off the land", the way to avoid this being called looting is to compensate the owners when you claim their food, etc., although cash might be turned around and used to buy more weapons for the enemy, so promissory notes, paid after the war ends, are safer. SinisterLefty (talk) 09:27, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

We're drifting from the OP's question, but it's a fascinating part of warfare that is often neglected. Adrienne Mayor's wonderful Greek Fire, Poison Arrows & Scorpion Bombs has some interesting pieces regarding the deliberate tampering of loot so that the supposedly victorious army would end up drunk/stoned/poisoned and find the boot was on the other foot (to at least tie this back into boots!) when the apparently fleeing army came back. Matt Deres (talk) 13:21, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

A snip at $170. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:37, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

We need to rework the old song: "These boots are made for lootin', wide at the top and brown, and one of these days these boots are gonna loot all over town." SinisterLefty (talk) 14:51, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Sincere thanks for making my comment look comparatively almost sensible. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:47, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Sensible boots ? Never ! SinisterLefty (talk) 15:57, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

I was only recently introduced to that expression and was told it was related to boot-legging, though I'm sure that was a folk etymology. Matt Deres (talk) 20:32, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

A fuller version that I have encountered is "Fill your boots with soup", presumably hyperbolic advice to soldiers to gather as much food as possible when the opportunity arose in invaded territory. I remember hearing it in a British Army context several decades ago (long before its popularisation in Terry Pratchett's Monstrous Regiment) as a more figurative expression (living off enemy supplies no longer being a current necessity), and assumed that it dated back to (at least) the Napoleonic wars period. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.177.55 (talk) 23:40, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

The British infantry wore "strong shoes" (1729 regulations) until 1823 when "half boots" were introduced, British Military Uniforms From Contemporary Pictures (pp. 70 & 122), so it seems that the roomy jack-boots suggested above were confined only to the heavy cavalry.

The only printed reference I can find is here which suggests that a leather drinking vessel called a "jack" or "boot" was the origin of the phrase. There is an entry in the Oxford Dictionary of English Idioms but I can't see a preview of it. Alansplodge (talk) 22:52, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Many thanks, Alan. What a very interesting book Allah does not have an Exit Visa looks. I can see the Oxford entry it just says "fill your boots: see FILL". But under fill your boots: "take full advantage of an opportunity to benefit yourself. British informal 2001 Sunday Herald By April 7 the Pitman factor will have reduced his price to about 12/1 so go on, fill your boots". So no clues as to origin. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:54, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

Purely by chance, I recently came across these other sources: Discussed at [1], [2] (traces the phrase back to 1818) and [3]. Also see rum-running. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:28, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Anecdotally, I don't recall the phrase (in London) before the late 1990s, in fact I remember the first person that said it to me (Oxford says 2001 in print and Martin's second link says 1990). I wouldn't attach too much credence to the guides at HMS Victory (Martin's first link), who can ingeniously link just about every known English idiom to Nelson's navy. Alansplodge (talk) 17:49, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Oh, dash it all! I searched for hours for those links, too. I thought they were really solid, **sob** Martinevans123 (talk) 17:54, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

At least your first ref supports mine, so there may be something in it... Alansplodge (talk) 08:35, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

I'm tempted by the Antiques Roadshow explanation which uses the name of the "boot flask". Martinevans123 (talk) 09:53, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

It's the most persuasive, but why has the expression only been on record for the last 30 years? Alansplodge (talk) 16:18, 7 July 2019 (UTC)