Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2019 December 5
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December 5
editEnglish variety
editWhat variety of English (seemingly BritEng) is this pronunciation (particularly [okai] for ok, [waia] for wire, etc)? Sounds similar to Cockney, thanks. 212.180.235.46 (talk) 19:03, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
- I hear Estuary English (more northern within that dialect area; think Ricky Gervais), with maybe the slightest tinge of West Country English in some of his prosody, but it's been many years since I've been to England; maybe somebody with a better ear will hear something different.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 19:53, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
- Sounds a bit like James Corden. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:00, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
- This article and this blog post both provide some interesting background on Estuary English. Among professional linguists, I will note, the notion of Estuary English has presented something of a controversial point of discussion. --Jayron32 20:20, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
- The accent's mangling of the t and the l are what caught my ear, reminiscent of the accent Stanley Holloway used in his portrayal of Eliza Doolittle's father (and hence, ironically, would have mangled his own name, a la Elmer Fudd). ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:39, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
- I wouldn't call it "mangling". Those accents have differences from standard British English, but "mangling" is a pejorative word that implies they are trying to do something and failing. People speaking in their native dialect are not mangling anything. That dialect simply has different ways of pronouncing T and l; t being a glottal stop, known as T-glottalization, and the L shows what is called L-vocalization. These are differences from standard English, but people speaking non-Standard dialects are NOT trying to speak standard English and mangling it. They are properly speaking their own dialects. --Jayron32 13:30, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
- That thing with the l's is not just a British thing. Some of my southeast coast colleagues talk that way. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:40, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
- I wouldn't call it "mangling". Those accents have differences from standard British English, but "mangling" is a pejorative word that implies they are trying to do something and failing. People speaking in their native dialect are not mangling anything. That dialect simply has different ways of pronouncing T and l; t being a glottal stop, known as T-glottalization, and the L shows what is called L-vocalization. These are differences from standard English, but people speaking non-Standard dialects are NOT trying to speak standard English and mangling it. They are properly speaking their own dialects. --Jayron32 13:30, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
- The accent's mangling of the t and the l are what caught my ear, reminiscent of the accent Stanley Holloway used in his portrayal of Eliza Doolittle's father (and hence, ironically, would have mangled his own name, a la Elmer Fudd). ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:39, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
- This article and this blog post both provide some interesting background on Estuary English. Among professional linguists, I will note, the notion of Estuary English has presented something of a controversial point of discussion. --Jayron32 20:20, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
- Ricky Gervais is from Reading, Berkshire. The accent that specific part of southern England (and adjacent areas) is influenced by West Country English. The OP's video includes notes stating the presenter has associations with Poole and Basingstoke, the latter only 28.6 kilometres (17.8 mi) south of Reading. More at [1]. Bazza (talk) 21:50, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
- Note that West Country accents are in rapid decline in England, see Second-home owners are killing off Cornish accent from the press a couple of days ago. In my experience, most people in Reading and Basingstoke talk in the same London-influenced accent that you can find all over the south of England nowadays. Alansplodge (talk) 18:16, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
- The loss of dialectical variety in English is a known issue on both sides of the pond. See [2] and [3] and [4]. --Jayron32 19:14, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
- It's been a thoroughly-assumed idea about American English for a long time, that mass media kills regional dialect. The last time I looked into it, studies were suggesting that the opposite was in fact happening--regional dialects in the US were becoming more distinct. We're more thoroughly internetified in the year 2019, though, so that may no longer be the case. I, at least, spend quite a bit of time chatting over voice and text with pals from different states and countries and it influences the way I talk. I'm sure that members of marginalized groups who must find friends online by necessity are stronger nexi of language borrowing from far-away places. (Jayron, your only source for that happening in USEng is Andrew Sullivan, who is not a linguist or anything resembling a reliable source on this topic.) Temerarius (talk) 22:05, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
- A quick Google brings up: Regional accents thrive in U.S. and America's Regional Accents, Holding Fast. Alansplodge (talk) 08:38, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
- It's been a thoroughly-assumed idea about American English for a long time, that mass media kills regional dialect. The last time I looked into it, studies were suggesting that the opposite was in fact happening--regional dialects in the US were becoming more distinct. We're more thoroughly internetified in the year 2019, though, so that may no longer be the case. I, at least, spend quite a bit of time chatting over voice and text with pals from different states and countries and it influences the way I talk. I'm sure that members of marginalized groups who must find friends online by necessity are stronger nexi of language borrowing from far-away places. (Jayron, your only source for that happening in USEng is Andrew Sullivan, who is not a linguist or anything resembling a reliable source on this topic.) Temerarius (talk) 22:05, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
- The loss of dialectical variety in English is a known issue on both sides of the pond. See [2] and [3] and [4]. --Jayron32 19:14, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
- Note that West Country accents are in rapid decline in England, see Second-home owners are killing off Cornish accent from the press a couple of days ago. In my experience, most people in Reading and Basingstoke talk in the same London-influenced accent that you can find all over the south of England nowadays. Alansplodge (talk) 18:16, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
- Sounds a bit like James Corden. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:00, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
I noticed some years ago that the very un-Cockney Lena pronounces English likes this, notably in her Eurovision-winning song, Satellite (She's German) --15:22, 11 December 2019 (UTC)