Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2018 August 25
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August 25 edit
Etymology of the word “gypsy” edit
The word gypsy is generally thought to come from “Egyptian”. Seeing as the Romani people actually come from India, not Egypt, has any serious scholar ever considered deriving Greek γύφτος (gýphtos) from गुप्त (Gupta)? Cheers ✦ hugarheimur 16:18, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
- It's an interesting theory, but the etymology, deriving the term from Egyptians is well established. They were still often called "Egyptians" until the late 18th century (in Henry Fielding's Tom Jones, for example). See also Etymology online [1]. The fact that they did not actually come from Egypt is irrelevant; lots of terms in various languages are based on a false notion of geographic origin. There's probably a name and article for that phenomenon. --Xuxl (talk) 17:46, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
- I’m aware of that. I just want to know if my little private theory is at least theoretically viable. The Egyptian thing could also be explained by a misapprehension/malapropism. Sometimes, just sometimes, the majority is actually wrong. Cheers ✦ hugarheimur 18:19, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
- Like, for example, the popular name of American aboriginals, "Indians". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:43, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
- Or the name of the Turkey (bird). Deor (talk) 22:07, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
- The progression of forms cited by the OED (2nd edition) is as clear as such a thing could well be. Referring to actual Egyptians:
- 1388 Egipcions
- 1398 Egypcyens
- c. 1400 Egipciens
- Referring to gipsies:
- 1514 Egypcyans
- 1538 Gipcyans
- 1589 Gipson
- 1591 Gipsen
- Before 1616 Gipsies
- I'm afraid the Egyptian theory really can't be explained away as a folk etymology. --Antiquary (talk) 08:55, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
- Like, for example, the popular name of American aboriginals, "Indians". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:43, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
- I’m aware of that. I just want to know if my little private theory is at least theoretically viable. The Egyptian thing could also be explained by a misapprehension/malapropism. Sometimes, just sometimes, the majority is actually wrong. Cheers ✦ hugarheimur 18:19, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
- Evidence against your theory is that the Guptas come from NE India, while the Romani hail from the north west. Rojomoke (talk) 05:29, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
Torana -- the name "Chandragupta" appears in Greek as "Sandrokottos"/"Sandrakottos" (where the "-tt-" likely reflects the common pronunciation in Indic vernacular languages at the time, while "-pt-" was an elevated archaic Sanskrit form)... AnonMoos (talk) 08:51, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
- That is a really good point, thank you, AnonMoos. Athenaeus apparently used an alternative form Σανδρόκυπτθς, though, so I’m not quite ready to give up ;o) Cheers ✦ hugarheimur 09:17, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
The term 'Egyptian' is still used in the Balkans today, see Ashkali and Balkan Egyptians, Egyptian Liberal Party, etc. --Soman (talk) 10:09, 26 August 2018 (UTC)