Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2018 April 19

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April 19

of House, of the House

Sometimes they say "of House" and sometimes "of the House" when referring to a person's title in Game of Thrones. Is there a subtle difference in meaning whether the definite article is used or not? --2001:16B8:2E3D:C400:8DDF:7D19:D86:983F (talk) 03:48, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

I don't know anything about Game of Thrones, but "of House" seems unnatural. I can't think of any case where you would use it. Do you have any examples? If I could see some examples, I would probably have a much better idea. —Stephen (talk) 03:54, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

I'm guessing that OP means "of (the) House Plantagenet". —Tamfang (talk) 08:13, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I meant. I don't know if it's appropriate to link scenes someone put on YouTube, but you can look for Cersei's coronation ("I now proclaim Cersei of the House Lannister, First of Her Name, Queen of the Andals and the First Men, Protector of the Seven Kingdoms") and the first time Jon meets Daenerys ("You stand in the presence of Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, rightful heir to the Iron Throne, rightful Queen of the Andals and the First Men, Protector of the Seven Kingdoms, the Mother of Dragons, the Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, the Unburnt, the Breaker of Chains"). --2001:16B8:2E3D:C400:842C:EC46:8614:40E5 (talk) 09:36, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

It's an unusual situation because houses in the real world are always (or almost always - I'm not aware of any counter-examples but there may be some), in English at least, described as "the House of [Name]" rather than simply "the House [Name]" or "House [Name]". Obvious examples are the House of Windsor (the UK), the House of Bernadotte (Sweden) and the House of Bourbon (Spain and formerly France, amongst others). There is a context that may be comparable, though, which is peerages without "of" in the title, such as Earl Spencer. Whereas a title with an "of" must grammatically be preceded by the definite article (so you'd have to write "the Earl of Shrewsbury" just as you'd have to write "the House of Windsor"), these titles do not require one and are often used without one (so both "the Earl Spencer" and "Earl Spencer" are perfectly normal usages). The form with the definite article would generally be regarded as more formal, and in normal conversation you'd usually hear the form without, but it's definitely not a hard-and-fast rule and it would not be unusual at all to hear the form without the definite article even in formal contexts. It looks from your examples as if the situation you're describing is similar, so I'd guess that it's essentially a matter of personal preference without any particular significance. Proteus (Talk) 11:15, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Reminds me a similar situation from the Bank Imperial's Dmitry Donskoy Russian TV spot. Only years later I learned that the narrator Vladimir Mashkov chose to say Mongol (монгол) instead of the correct Russian plural accusative Mongolov (монголов, the Mongols). Until then I didn't consider it a jarring error, despite being a native Russian speaker. Brandmeister^talk 12:43, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps the writers were sci-fi fans and were referencing House Atreides. It's certainly not the way we would speak in England, but this is fantasy so it doesn't have to play by the rules I suppose. Alansplodge (talk) 12:54, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

The phrasing "House X" has a certain generic "archaic English" feel to it, even if it isn't directly used anymore. Both George R. R. Martin and Frank Herbert were writing about societies trapped in a medieval-like feudal structure, both the Dune universe and Westeros have social structures based on Medieval European ones. The use of vaguely archaic-sounding phrasing is a way for the authors to convey such atmospherics without making the books hard to read. --Jayron32 16:11, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

But in medieval England, there was no "House Plantagenet" or "House York". Alansplodge (talk) 18:56, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

To me it sounds like over-literally translated German rather than archaic English: das Haus Plantagenet and das Haus York are perfectly cromulent. --Antiquary (talk) 08:28, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

On another hand, Clan Campbell is a standard form, rather than Clan of Campbell. —Tamfang (talk) 09:59, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

That's gentle on my mind. --Trovatore (talk) 20:23, 25 April 2018 (UTC)