Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 November 10

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November 10

"all but"

Somebody recently wrote on my talk page: "Classifying Romani people (or Indigenous groups for that matter) in the same category as recent immigrant groups is all but guaranteed to be reverted." — What confuses me is that I've known the expression "all but" only in the sense of "everything except for", but here it seems to be meant just the other way round, am I wrong? If not, have I missed something there?--Herfrid (talk) 19:46, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

The expression's meaning is "almost certainly". --Xuxl (talk) 19:54, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

See all but. Alansplodge (talk) 20:21, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Or this, giving the two possible meanings [1] Wymspen (talk) 21:16, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Thank you everybody! I must have overlooked that somehow…--Herfrid (talk) 21:34, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

In use since 1590: "All were faire knights, and goodly well beseene, But to faire Britomart they all but shadowes beene." (Spenser's Faerie Queene.) Dbfirs 07:06, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Is Jesús ever a Jewish name?

I tried to look for a Jew named Jesús but found nobody. Is it still strongly regarded as a Christian name in the Hispanosphere? — (((Romanophile))) ♞ (contributions) 21:15, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

"The name Jesus is derived from the Latin Iesus, a transliteration of the Greek Ἰησοῦς (Iesous). The Greek form is a rendering of the Hebrew ישוע‎ (Yeshua), a variant of the earlier name יהושע‎ (Yehoshua), in English "Joshua"." See Jesus. You will certainly find Jews called Joshua, or the Hebrew equivalent. Wymspen (talk) 21:21, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

While that's interesting, note that the OP is specifically asking about the name "Jesús" and about Jewish Hispanics. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:26, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

The point being that "Jesus" and "Joshua" are actually the same name. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:19, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

I think he's asking about Christian Hispanics. "Christian name" is somewhat deprecated these days, but I doubt any Jew would use the term about their own given name. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:37, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Not to go too far down the rabbit hole, since I don't actually know the answer, but he's clearly asking about Jews. He says so twice. He's not using "Christian name" as a synonym for "given name", he's using it as "a name used only by Christians". --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:44, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

See previous Reference Desk discussions on Jesus as a forename here and here. I can't find a reference, but it seems very unlikely to me that a non-Christian would call their child Jesus. Alansplodge (talk) 09:31, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Unless they just like the name. And he shall be a good man.--Jayron32 13:31, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

I find here that "Jews don’t name children versions of God, generally sticking to human beings in the Hebrew Bible. It is forbidden for Muslims to name a child Allah or God. For reasons that are unclear, much of the English-speaking world has tended to avoid Jesus as a name." Bus stop (talk) 15:33, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

I don't see why the first point is relevant, Bus stop, since only for Christians ia "Jesus" a name of God Jews. --ColinFine (talk) 19:18, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

ColinFine—I don't know if the entire sentence is relevant or not. To my way of thinking, if there are human beings named Jesus in the Hebrew bible, then you are right—the sentence is irrelevant. But if there are no human beings named Jesus in the Hebrew bible—then the sentence is relevant. (I am referring to the sentence reading "Jews don’t name children versions of God, generally sticking to human beings in the Hebrew Bible".) I do not know if there are human beings named Jesus in the Hebrew bible. It is the sort of question I wouldn't touch with a ten foot stick. Bus stop (talk) 00:36, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Joshua is a prominent figure in the Hebrew Bible. Joshua and Jesus are the same name. (In Spanish, Joshua is apparently rendered as Josué.) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:12, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

It is beyond my capabilities to weigh in on biblical instances of Jesus or related names. I feel competent finding sources on contemporary instances of the name Jesus. I would be in over my head if I tried to address the biblical occurrences of the name Jesus or related names. I'm comfortable with sources like the New York Times. Ancient history was not as systematized our modern online news media. Bus stop (talk) 03:56, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

For which reason the odd exception tends to really stand out, e.g. James Jesus Angleton. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:02, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

According to his wife the name was given to him by his mother. His wife said that his attitude towards his middle name changed in the course of his life. "Carmen Mercedes Moreno [mother] was a devout Catholic who insisted on giving him the name of Jesus."[2] Cicely Angleton, his wife, said "[a]s he grew older he became proud of his Mexican background—but, at the beginning, no. He never liked to use his middle name...who likes to go around with a middle name of Jesus?" Bus stop (talk) 20:39, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Bus_stop -- the Hebrew name ישוע (Yeshua`/Jeshua) occurs in the Hebrew of the Old Testament at Ezra 2:2, 2:6, 2:36, 2:40, 3:2, 3:8, 3:9, 3:10, 3:18, 4:3, 8:33; Nehemiah 3:19, 7:7, 7:11, 7:39, 7:43, 8:7, 8:17, 9:4, 9:5, 11:26, 12:1, 12:7, 12:8, 12:10, 12:24, 12:26; 1 Chronicles 24:11; and 2 Chronicles 31:15, and also in Aramaic at Ezra 5:2. In Nehemiah 8:17 this name appears to refer to Joshua son of Nun, just as he is referred to as Ιησους in the ancient Greek of Josephus and the New Testament (Acts 7:45, Hebrews 4:8), since Yeshua` was a later short form of Yehoshua` (Joshua). English Bible translators of ca. 1600 AD were the ones who decided to transcribe Hebrew ישוע / Yeshua` into English as "Jeshua", thus creating a separation between that name and "Jesus" in English. Before that time, the name ישוע / Yeshua` of the Old Testament generally had the same form as the Ιησους (Jesus) of the New Testament in Christian Bible translations in various languages... AnonMoos (talk) 09:32, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Yeshua is the word the Jews use when writing in English. 82.13.208.70 (talk) 12:31, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Getting back to the question: "Is Jesús ever a Jewish name?" I think the New York Times is basically telling us that the answer to that question would be "no". The NYT says "Jews don’t name children versions of God, generally sticking to human beings in the Hebrew Bible." Maybe the NYT is wrong. The NYT obviously is not addressing either of the two concerns this thread has uncovered. The NYT is unconcerned with whether or not Jesus Christ is regarded as a God by the Jews, and the NYT is unconcerned with whether or not "human beings in the Hebrew Bible" were ever named Jesus or close variants of that name. Bus stop (talk) 13:21, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

According to the New York Times the name Mary was considered too holy for general use. But in its original form Mariam it has been in continual use in many religions. 82.13.208.70 (talk) 14:30, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

The question being asked specifies the name Jesus, not the name Mary. Bus stop (talk) 15:35, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Agreed, but it's in the link you provided, and readers who don't spot your disclaimer may believe that what is written there is true. 82.13.208.70 (talk) 16:01, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

My disclaimer? Any source may be incorrect. Bus stop (talk) 16:09, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Hi, An Israeli Hebrew speaker is here: If the OP is referring to the Hebrew version of the name "Jesus" (i.e. Jesus Christ), being "Yeshu" (not to be confused with "Yeshu'a", being a Hebrew Biblical name from which the English version "Jesus" is derived, via Latin via Greek), then Google gives one hit (in the Hebrew alphabet): A contemporary resident of the Israeli city Sderot, named Yeshu Brahnu. His surname Brahnu proves he has migrated from Ethiopia, so I still wonder if he is a member of the (relatively big) Jewish Ethiopian community living now in Israel, or a member of the (smaller) Christian Ethiopian congregation Falash Mura most of which lives now in Israel.

Anyway, if you consider the name Jesus (or the Hebrew version: Yeshu) as a surname as well, then there is such a Jewish surname: Ben Yeshu (meaning Jesus's son). There are a few Israelis having that surname with a Jewish first name. However, I'm not sure what their religion is. 185.27.105.168 (talk) 13:51, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

185.27.105.168 -- the Hebrew name ישו is historically strongly associated with the derogatory Toledot Yeshu, and I don't know why either Jews or Christians would adopt that name. (The Ethiopian name could be something completely different from an Ethiopian language.) Certainly when Christians translate the New Testament into Hebrew, they don't use Yeshu as the name of Jesus... AnonMoos (talk) 14:41, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

So, is the OP referring to the Hebrew name "Yeshu'a"? It's obviously a Hebrew name of some ancient Jews, mentioned already in the Old Testament, so what is the OP asking about?

As for "Yeshu": most of the contemporary Hebrew speakers have never heard about the book you've mentioned, and are not aware of the derogatory association ascribed to that name in ancient times. However, when you ask a contemporary Hebrew speaker about the Hebrew translation of Jesus, they will probably answer very naturally: "Yeshu" (most of them are not aware of the Biblical name Yeshu'a), and only few Hebrew speakers will answer "Yeshu'a". Please notice that also the title of the article about Jesus in the Hebrew Wikipedia is "Yeshu" (Indeed, the article mentions also the name Yeshu'a in the very beginning of the article, but not in its title). 185.27.105.168 (talk) 16:04, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Further, the Biblical Hebrew name was originally pronounced /jeʃuʕ/ (the Patah Gnuva is a later phenomenon), and the /ʕ/ tended to be dropped in a later period, few centuries after the latest events described in the Old Testament occurred, so the name "Yeshu" may seem to reflect something real - in that period - around 0 BC. HOTmag (talk) 18:26, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

The 1st century A.D. pronunciation of ישוע was probably [jeːʃuːʕ] with long vowels (as seen in the adaptation into Greek), though English-speaking Semiticists would usually transcribe this pronunciation as yēšūʕ or similar (see Americanist phonetic notation, an old rival to IPA). Devout Christians with historical knowledge of Hebrew might be offended by ישו and would certainly not use that form when translating Christian religious writings into Hebrew... AnonMoos (talk) 15:08, 15 November 2017 (UTC)