Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2016 May 3

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May 3

x, the unknown

In John Porterfield, there are the notations "1571–1571x3" and "1571–1571 x 1573". Is this standard? Clarityfiend (talk) 23:36, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

It is standard in genealogical and academic dating notation, and simply means "between 1571 and 1573". Most likely, a contemporary source notes that he was alive in 1571 and dead in 1573, but we have no other source stating when he died specifically. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:15, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. Clarityfiend (talk) 05:18, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

Nôrmale Mûsique

User:Laguna greg tells me he studied at the "École Nôrmale de Mûsique de Paris" [sic], and claims to have a certificate from that august institution which uses all those diacritics. That was a surprise to me. I've never encountered these spellings with the circumflexes. We know it as the École Normale de Musique de Paris.

When did French stop spelling 'musique' as 'mûsique', or 'normale' as 'nôrmale'? And why would such an institution continue using long-abandoned spellings on their official documents into the present day? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:56, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

I can think of at least one archaic word that is found in official academic documents - ès, as in "baccalauréat ès lettres", which is a medieval French contraction of "en les". So it is possible for archaic spellings to appear there, but I don't know why Laguna greg spelled "normal" and "musique" like that, because those words never had diacritics... Adam Bishop (talk) 00:13, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

The circonflexe is used in the Norman spelling of mûsique. I don't think "nôrmal/nôrmale" is normally spelled with a circonflexe in any language. And I don't understand Laguna greg's spelling either. (Maybe a cultivated cousin of the metal umlaut, the "cûltûre cîrcônflêxe"? :-)---Sluzzelin talk 03:33, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

I couldn't find anything about it, I'm going the same way nonetheless regarding your last hypothesis. Laguna greg may have chosen (..) from several variations the best illustrative of the pedagogical model there known - ( one pair of hands proudly raised over that keyboard? ) -Askedonty (talk) 19:39, 4 May 2016 (UTC) In fact less bold than metal it may start with the basic recorder; when not spelled pipo it use(s) a circonflexe as the flûte.

Hi All, I'm quite flattered that my home page has sparked so much conversation! As far as I know, the way you are spelling that name today is correct. I went to school there during the 1988-1989 school year, and I have a letter from the school director regarding my admission where the letterhead uses that spelling with those accents. It happened to be handy when I was writing my home page, so I used it as well. Spelling reforms have taken place a couple of times since then as Jayron points out below - I guess I'll be buying a new dictionary soon. However, the French are very inconsistent for a people who pride themselves on embracing high culture and "la perfectionnement" of everything. For example, the Ecole Normale still thinks of itself and often calls itself the Ecole Normale Alfred Cortot, while the French Ministry of Culture often refers to it as the Ecole Normale Nadia Boulanger. This is nothing but politics in action, and I don't think it should influence what happens here in Wiki as these are not actually the official names of the institution, even if they were in the past (or not). I must also point out that the Ecole is an incredibly conservative and even recidivist institution, both in its administration and its teaching. The school tries very hard to hang on to its illustrious heritage when Cortot, Boulanger, and Lipati were there at the beginning of the last century, and Ravel sat in on Boulanger's counterpoint class just for fun. This kind of chauvinism extends even to how they write official letters. Also, I'm not a linguist per se, but I believe that the accents to show the different vowel colors were used much more freely and indiscriminately up until the 1960s. That started changing with "les evenements de 68" (no I'm not going to put in any of the accents, too hard on my PC). As I understand it, that was the first time the Academie began considering reforms of the written language, including spelling. Cheers! Laguna greg 23:57, 5 May 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Laguna greg (talk • contribs)

Thanks, Laguna greg for that useful background.

I guess we must conclude from all the answers that

• (a) 'normal(e)' and 'musique' are correctly spelt without any diacritics, but
• (b) the ENdeM for unknown reasons has in the past included diacritics in its letterhead. Quite odd behaviour, even for the French.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 09:32, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

Exactly. I find it very odd, I never saw that before, at first I thought it was some kind of hoax. Akseli9 (talk) 10:29, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

FYI, whichever words prior to 3 months ago the French did spell with a circumflex, there are now about 2000 less. See Circumflex#French. --Jayron32 12:13, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

Those are sort of..."suggested" changes though. The Académie can't enforce them, and even the spelling reforms from 1990 are still often ignored. Adam Bishop (talk) 13:17, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

Not immediately and instantly, no; but insofar as the French education system may follow the lead of the Académie in its language curriculum and insofar as official style guides within France may do so as well, such changes are likely to eventually work through the system. --Jayron32 16:23, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

Looking at fr:wp a lot of them have disappeared already. 92.23.52.169 (talk) 19:35, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

Resolved