Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 May 9

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May 9

What is the Korean in this image?

What is the Korean text in File:Hattiesburg Korean Presbyterian Church.jpg? Thanks, WhisperToMe (talk) 06:45, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

한인 장로 교회 "Korean Presbyterian Church" Siuenti (talk) 21:08, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks :) WhisperToMe (talk) 00:00, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Pasty Faced

What does 'pasty faced' mean? KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 11:16, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Having a pale, unhealthy, sallow complexion. [1] Dismas|^(talk) 11:17, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

OED has "Of the complexion, skin, etc.: of the colour of dough; dull, unhealthily pale". DuncanHill (talk) 11:21, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

See here - Cucumber Mike (talk) 11:29, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

That's basically what I guessed it meant, bizarrely. It was a phrase I heard in a documentary about the Christmas Truce of 1914. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 11:33, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

And it's pasty (of the nature of paste) not pasty (a delicious Cornish savoury). DuncanHill (talk) 11:42, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

"The Welsh coal miner emerged pasty-faced from the strip club." :-) StuRat (talk) 12:24, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Resolved

Italian:"Amaretti"

According to [2], it means "small, bitter things", yet this word is used to describe sweet cookies. Why is that ? Did they formerly skip the sweeteners ? StuRat (talk) 12:27, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

AFAIK. classically they were flavoured with bitter almonds. This agrees [3] --TrogWoolley (talk) 14:39, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

So then the term refers to the almonds from which they were made, not the finished cookies (which would have been sweet, unless sweeteners were skipped). StuRat (talk) 14:51, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Lots of culinary terms no longer mean what they originally did. For example, biscuit originally meant "cooked twice" (hence the 'bis'), but that's hardly ever true anymore. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:32, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Things can be sweet and bitter at the same time. Compare Amarone, the Italian wine. Itsmejudith (talk) 23:22, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm constantly surprised, though I suppose I shouldn't be by now, that people treat "bitter" and "sweet" (or sometimes "sour" and "sweet") as opposites. Sweetness does somewhat suppress the sensation of bitterness or sourness, but only somewhat; if they were there before you put the sugar in, they're still there after. --Trovatore (talk) 19:21, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Bittersweet has many meanings, including culinary ones, such as in Types of chocolate. Maybe other languages have a word that means this, one that isn't just the two elements portmanteaued together, but English doesn't seem to. But it stands to reason that both parts should get mentioned, just as in "Sweet and sour <whatever>". Sweet and sour are not standard complementary tastes, so when they are combined it's worth noting that they're both in there. Same with bitter and sweet. Savoury and sweet sometimes successfully combine, but again it's worthy of explicit mention, such as "salted caramel". Just "caramel" is assumed to sweet and nothing but. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:27, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't quite get why you say "sweet and sour are not standard complementary tastes". The combination of sweet and sour is the foundation of almost all good jams and pies; it doesn't strike me as something so unusual that it needs to be called out specially. And bitterness is usually considered an undesirable taste in food except when combined with sweetness, so mentioning the bitterness and letting the sweetness be just understood strikes me as a defensible choice. --Trovatore (talk) 22:38, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

OK, sweet and sour has a long history, as you say. But the parts are still identifiable when combined. Also, there are many contexts where they would definitely not be found together (e.g. have you come across any vinegar flavoured icecream lately?). That all adds up to "they're different, and sometimes opposite, but they can co-exist in the right circumstances". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:52, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Actually, if you're ever in Santa Cruz, California, you should make it a point to visit a little place called the Penny Ice Creamery, on Cedar St near downtown. They make their own ice cream on-site and do wild and wonderful things with it. One time I tried their balsamic-vinegar ice cream, and it was a revelation. I think it's in their rotation but, sadly, I have not seen it again.

In any case I don't think they're opposite. If they were opposite, how could you identify the parts separately when combined, as you correctly note? --Trovatore (talk) 23:17, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

"Opposite" in the same sense that people who like cats and people who like dogs are "opposite". Or that people who love summer and those who hate summer are "opposite". Or that party animals and library geeks are "opposite". Or that the stereotypical "apples and oranges" are "opposite". In the food world, any taste that you seriously weren't expecting could be said to be "opposite". It's not a rigorously defined term. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 00:37, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

By the way, Stu, in general amari are bitter liqueurs, usually herb-based, some sweeter than others. Amaretto, "little bitter", is an almond-based liqueur. I suspect, though I have no proof, that the cookies are named after the liqueur rather than directly after the taste. --Trovatore (talk) 00:05, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Sweet canceling bitter or sour

For me, at least, in a homogeneous mixture, it can't be both sweet and sour/bitter. My tea is bitter. I add sugar. Now it is sweet and no longer bitter. The "sweet and sour" sauce in Chinese restaurants just tastes sweet to me. Now, you could have a heterogeneous mixture, say with wedges of lemon in honey, and that would alternate between sweet and sour. Perhaps this varies by individuals, but, in my case, sweet cancels those other tastes. So, does it vary by person, as I suspect ? StuRat (talk) 03:44, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Hmm, really? I'm skeptical. I wonder if we're just using different language to report the sensations.

Suppose you take some strong lemonade American-style lemonade, not soda pop with lots of lemon juice and lots of sugar. Do you agree that it is sweeter than water? Do you also agree that it is more sour than water? Maybe you wouldn't describe it as sour period if it has enough sugar, but it's still more sour than water, is it not? --Trovatore (talk) 03:51, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

I would describe lemon juice as sour, but if I added enough sugar to it it would no longer be sour. Now let me ask. If you can't stand it because it's too sour, does this not change when you add sugar ? If it remains just as sour, how can you drink lemonade ? StuRat (talk) 04:15, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

I think it gets less sour, but it is still sour. If it weren't sour at all it would just taste like sugar-water, which I don't like. --Trovatore (talk) 04:18, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

OK, so they do cancel out for you, too, it's just a matter of degree. StuRat (talk) 04:49, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Sure, but that isn't the point. You said it can't be both sweet and sour at the same time. That's what I'm skeptical of. Do you agree that lemonade is both sweeter than water, and sourer than water? That if you add water to lemonade, it gets both less sweet and less sour?

Or, put it another way, suppose you start with strong unsweetened lemonade (say, 1 part lemon juice to 1 part water) and you start adding sugar. Is there some point where it's neither sweet nor sour? Not really, right? But then if you stop just between the point where it's more-sour-than-sweet and the point where it's more-sweet-than-sour, it must be both sweet and sour at the same time. Right? --Trovatore (talk) 05:15, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

It might be a matter of individual perception. The separate sets of taste buds are both stimulated (i.e. both sweet and sour), but some people might perceive one as dominant over the other. Different tongues might have different sensitivities, and different brains might combine the sensations in different ways. Dbfirs 09:11, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Different ways, sure, I can buy that. What I have trouble with is Stu's claim that for him there's no such thing as sweet and sour at the same time. So then what happens if you do the lemonade experiment to the point that the sugar and acid balance, what does it taste like? Just water? I don't believe it. --Trovatore (talk) 17:02, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

No, then I would taste more subtle flavors, some of which might be unpleasant, like the chlorine in the the water used to make it. StuRat (talk) 17:28, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Hmm? Why would you taste the chlorine in this mixture more than you would if you just drank the water by itself?

I'm still skeptical. My guess is you would taste both the sugar and the acid. Surely anyone who likes lemonade must taste both the sugar and the acid, because otherwise there would be no point in adding the lemon; you might as well drink sugar-water. --Trovatore (talk) 17:35, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm not saying I taste it more than in plain water. I don't drink plain water, precisely because of that. (Leaving the water in the fridge for a few days can let most of that chlorine flavor outgas, so then it's OK.) Lemon juice is more than just acid, there is some taste there, too, which comes out once you mask that sourness with sugar. Otherwise limes, lemons, and other citrus would all taste the same; just plain sour. StuRat (talk) 17:48, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Well, no, they wouldn't taste the same. They're all sour, but some are sweeter than others. That isn't the same.

So taking up your point, certainly, lemons have flavor elements other than citric acid, though citric acid is surely the dominant one. So now you're saying that if you were to process out the citric acid and keep the other elements of lemon juice, that would taste the same to you as our balanced lemonade with a buttload of both acid and sugar?

You obviously know your perceptions better than I do, but I'm really skeptical. I propose an alternative hypothesis: You taste the acid when it's mixed with sugar, but you just don't call it "sour". You think of it as "lemon flavor", when it's actually acid (not that those are contradictory; the main taste substance in lemon being, in fact, acid). --Trovatore (talk) 18:00, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

That could well be, I don't know if the sour taste is "turned off" at the taste buds or in the brain. And I do think lemon without the acid still tastes lemon. Take lemon zest for example. StuRat (talk) 18:06, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Yea, I suspect in some people, like me, the sweet taste buds send a signal that suppresses the signals from other taste buds. For comparison, if you have some food with a very subtle flavor, then add tons of capsaicin, would you still taste the subtle flavor ? I doubt it. StuRat (talk) 13:09, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Possibly related, I hear chefs say salt "brings the flavor out" and this is definitely not my experience. If I add salt it tastes salty and less like the original flavor. Again, something must be different in my perception. StuRat (talk) 17:53, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree with you on that, StuRat. I don't mind a very tiny amount of salt, but the quantities used by many food preparers totally drown out the subtle flavours for me. Dbfirs 19:32, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

It seems complicated. For one thing, regular table salt gives things a salty flavor much quicker than, say, kosher salt, which lacks iodine and is also in larger grains/flakes, both of which might affect flavor. It's interesting that you bring that up in this discussion because salt can also be used to remove the sourness and bitterness of goods, apparently without removing the sweetness (source: Alton Brown). This is why some people sprinkle salt on their grapefruit rather than sugar - the salt masks the sourness, while extra sugar could only overpower it. IIRC, Alton explained it as salt preferentially bonding to taste receptors, but I may have that bit wrong. Matt Deres (talk) 14:04, 12 May 2015 (UTC)