Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 May 14

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May 14

Does anyone remember this thread?

A long time ago there was a thread here (I think it was here) discussing a list of nonsense words that someone had invented to sound like ordinal numbers or counting numbers. I have tried to find this without success. I know there's not much to go on, but does it ring any bells with anyone? 109.152.146.38 (talk) 19:57, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Reminds me of numberwang. In the "imaginary numbers" portion of the game, someone answers "shinty-six" - thre response is "Oh, bad luck, Simon. I'm afraid shinty-six is a real number. As in the popular phrase, 'I only have shinty-six days left to live.'" I've tried to search the archives but failed, for some reason I can't get google to not return false hits that involve "shiny", even though I'm pretty sure I've used "shinty" as a number sometime in the past here... There's also Bilbo Baggins' famous eleventy first birthday party. SemanticMantis (talk) 21:04, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Long shot, but you're not thinking of Yan tan tethera are you? Alansplodge (talk) 22:12, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

I started a tread on that on a speculation about sheep counting numbers, probably three years ago. μηδείς (talk) 00:52, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

This one? Alansplodge (talk) 22:31, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Does the article titled Indefinite and fictitious numbers help any? --Jayron32 22:47, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

• Thanks for the suggestions. None of these is exactly what I was looking for though. The words I'm thinking of were invented relatively recently by conscious creative effort, not part of an old tradition. 86.183.128.199 (talk) 21:06, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Congolese

We've had related questions before, but it's too hard to search for them,

Why does Congo produce the adjective Congolese, rather than, say, Congonese, or Congan? (I suppose Congese would be too redolent of "congealed cheese".)

Who makes these decisions, anyway? And why wasn't I consulted? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:44, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Here's the explanation.[1] It happened before your time. (I assume.) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:50, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

I tried to find sources explaining why French added -l- before the standard ending -ais (which corresponds etymologically to our -ese), but failed. This is also the case for Togolese/togolais. My guess is that, when devising euphonic adjectives for Togo and the Congo, the French (and Belgians) were influenced by the familiarity of sénégalais. (Senegal was France's first sub-Saharan African colony.) Marco polo (talk) 13:52, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Baseball Bugs. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:19, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

• Many French words ending with the sound /o/ (written au or aux) are descended from Latin roots ending in L, and have suffixed cognates that retain the L. Likely the o of Togo and Congo brought the pattern to French-speaking colonizers' minds. —Tamfang (talk) 08:14, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Must be telepathy. I wrote out the following question last night while offline at the same time as the above posts were being made.

Nationality suffixes

Can anybody explain why these are divided up the way they are? There are a lot of -ish endings in Europe and -ese endings in East Asia, but there is also Faroese, Maltese, Portuguese and Genoese (but Venetian). The default appears to be -an or -ian, and I suspect it's something to do with the Latin endings -ianum and -ensis (Olysipponensis, Lisbon). There is also -ic, Icelandic, Hispanic, and also in other areas e.g. Jurassic.

That reminds me that when Gladys Aylward the missionary (who I was privileged to hear preach) entered the Soviet Union she had a hard time convincing the border guards she wasn't Armenian (most Armenian names end in -ian and the description on her passport included the word "Librarian"). In parts of Asia -i is normal, Israeli replacing Israelite. -ite is seen in other areas - Blairite, socialite - and there is also -ist, socialist.

Within a country there is the same division - Kentish, Devonian, and in other areas there is Amish, coltish, antediluvian. 156.61.250.250 (talk) 08:25, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

There are some lists illustrating the different suffixes that can be used at Demonym, but not much by way of explanation. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 11:48, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Are we sure there is any system behind it at all, or rationale? After all, there is no central prescriptive authority on the English language, so literally no one makes these decisions or sets these rules. Why is there the presumption of a rule or pattern beyond "random" and "arbitrary"? --Jayron32 12:02, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Explanations, to some extent, can be found by looking up the suffixes: -ese, -ian, -ish, etc. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:09, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

There surely isn't a system, but there are patterns. Newly coined terms succeed partly on the basis of euphony and positive association. For example, Devonian sounds nicer, perhaps due to its similarity to the classically derived Oxonian, than Devonish*, which would sound much too devilish. Then there is the matter of linguistic and historical fashions. The Portuguese were the first Europeans to have much to do with East Asia, and at least during the 15th and 16th centuries they favored the Latinate -ês that became the basis for our -ese. Marco polo (talk) 13:57, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Devonish sounds like beer to me!.DuncanHill (talk) 14:37, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, Jayron, there are patterns. If, for example, I told you of a country called Jayronia and asked you to guess their demonym, I imagine you'd start with Jayronian, then maybe suggest Jayronese, Jayronite or Jayronish. But I can't imagine even you would go for something as arbitrary/random/unheard of as Jayronelt or Jayronuve or Jayronoze. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:49, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

If the country was called Jayrona, it would likely be Jayronan, as most any country ending in a gets an n tacked on, though it could also be Jayronese. If it were Jayronland, the northern Europe origin of that name would suggest Jayronish or Jayronsh. If it were simply Jayron, it could be Jayronese or maybe Jayronite. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:28, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

• I'm still wondering about Panamania, Guamania and Canadia. —Tamfang (talk) 08:05, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
  • The way I read EO, "Canadian" preceded "Canada".[http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Canada&allowed_in_frame=0 ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:42, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
    • It says Canadian is attested first – not that Canada is a backform. —Tamfang (talk) 06:36, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
  • The Spanish for Panamanian is panameño/a. Hard to tell which word came first. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:46, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
    • That's a regular formation in Spanish. —Tamfang (talk) 06:36, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

What about Liverpudlian (which is what I am). Liverpool doesn't even have a 'd' in it. 'Liverpooligan' would be more appropriate. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 09:42, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

According to EO,[2] the "d" has to do with replacing "pool" with "puddle", a joke that eventually stuck. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:29, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

I think KageTora's suggestion is a bit too close to "hooligan". 156.61.250.250 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 11:34, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

That might not have been a coincidence. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:14, 19 May 2015 (UTC)