Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 March 3

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

March 3

Pronunciation of "Thornhagh"

Hi, just wondering how Thornhagh Gurdon's first name is pronounced: THOR-nə(r)? If someone can provide the IPA for his first and last name, I'll add it to the article. — SMUconlaw (talk) 05:51, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Etymologically it is from haugh. How the bearer actually pronounced nobody knows.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 14:21, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Why would there be a final "r", Smuconlaw? Perhaps you meant /θɔ(ɹ~ː)nə(ː)/ ? My local dialect is non-rhotic (though I often speak rhotically) and the linking r is only used between words (to link them). Whilst "idea" may be hypercorrected to "idear", and the like by hypercorrective speakers, no one would consciously add in a final /ɹ/ when they no that there isn't one. Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 02:02, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Well, I'm not really familiar with this. But is THOR-nə even correct? Or could it be something like THOR-naw? — SMUconlaw (talk) 08:32, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

As you can see from Greenhalgh -hagh potentially might have 4-5 variants. Better to leave the article without the IPA transcription until we find a source.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 02:17, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Yup, I guess so. Thanks. — SMUconlaw (talk) 17:46, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

preposition+verb

Latin has a long list of verbs like produce, induce, seduce, deduce, adduce; they're similarly abundant in Sanskrit and Russian; scarce in the native English lexicon (driven out by the Normans?) but we have a similar phenom in the phrasal verbs: take on, take over, take out, take up. I don't think I've found anything at all similar in my limited studies of non-IE languages; it makes me wonder a bit what other ways there are to build up the repertoire of verbs from a limited stock of roots.

Do you know a non-IE language that has clusters of verbs related in some analogous way? —Tamfang (talk) 08:25, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Japanese does. 'kakigaeru' comes from 'kaku' ('to write') and 'kaeru' ('to change'), and means 'to overwrite'. 'Tachiagaru' ('to stand up') comes from 'tatsu' ('to stand') and 'agaru' ('to rise up'). The list is endless. These however do not include a preposition, but are rather just combinations of verbs. The Japanese version of a preposition would not actually be added to the verb itself, unlike in your English examples. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 11:18, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Semitic verbs, especially the Arabic verb has a very productive set of prefixes and infixes that change the sense of a root such that words like book, secretary, library, correspond, etc., all come from the basic verb "write". I don't speak the language, but others can comment and the article should cover this. isiZulu has a limited native vocabulary of verbs from the point of view of an English speaker. The sense of words like ukufunda "To read, study, learn" are clear from the nouns in context. Zulu, especially Urban Zulu is changing very fast, with words borrowed from English and Afrikaans to fill perceived gaps, just like English did with borrowings from Norse, French, Dutch, Latin and Greek. μηδείς (talk) 17:06, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

None of the non-Indo-European languages that I know much about have a similar system consisting of a limited number of what I would call adverbial particles (often but not always identical to prepositions) combined with verbs to form compounds, together with a relative lack of other kinds of compound verbs. There may well be such languages, but I don't happen to know them. However, Mandarin Chinese definitely has verbs that combine a stand-alone one-syllable verb with a word that can be used as a preposition or adverb. (However, Mandarin words that function as prepositions and adverbs can generally also function as verbs.) This kind of compound, though, makes up only a minority of the Mandarin compound verbs. Most Mandarin compound verbs are like the Japanese example cited by KageTora, consisting of two stand-alone verbs. In fact, I suspect that many of the Japanese compounds are borrowed from Chinese. Chinese has also borrowed compound verbs from Japanese. Marco polo (talk) 17:59, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Someone will hopefully correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that the Japanese compound verbs are almost all of native Japanese origin (albeit often written using kanji). Verbs from Chinese roots are "noun + する" ("do noun") and these generally do not concatenate like the native verbs. 109.152.149.255 (talk) 01:03, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Apparently Hungarian has something similar: Hungarian verb#Verb particles /prefixes (igekötők) --Amble (talk) 20:30, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Georgian has a very similar pattern to IE languages. Further, it shares with the Slavonic languages that some prefixes convey aspect (usually perfective) as well as or instead of decomposable meaning. I think this is one of the arguments that Gamkrelidze etc. advance for Nostratic. --ColinFine (talk) 12:29, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

• Pronouns and lexical terms are usually used to connect the Kartvelian languages to the Nostratic hypothesis. Not the actual Georgian verb conjugations, which are hugely complex. Indo-European shows connections to the Uralic/Uralo-Siberian verb. PIE phonology makes it look like a Uralo-Siberian dialect that was reinterpreted by a Northwest Caucasian language speaking population that was dominated by a wave of horse-riding pastoralists who conquered the valley of the Volga River from the east. The same westward invasion pattern was repeated by the Huns, the Turks, and the Mongols. All of the latter had simple, agglutinating verb morphologies. μηδείς (talk) 20:54, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

• I'll also mention there are serial verbs, where a series of unmarked basic verbs in a row are used to create a more complex idea. This happens rarely in English but is very common in some areas, like New Guinea. 21:04, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Name of a film for teaching English

Hi, everyone. I'm looking for the name of an old (late 1980s or early 1990s) film used to teach English as a foreign language. The plot of the film was an alien girl called Io (not sure if it's written like this) crash-landing on Earth and enlisting the help of an English boy and girl to find three keys (bronze, silver, gold), a sword and a lamp so she can return to her planet. In the process, a gang of three aliens clad in black known as the Neutrons (once again, not sure whether it's written like this in the film) try to foil her plans. Animated segments with bits of English grammar and vocabulary are shown interspersed with the action.

A Google search of "keys", "sword" and "lamp" only seems to yield sites about RPGs. I hope someone here's seen or used the film and can tell me what its name was. Thanks! --Leptictidium (mt) 09:47, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Greenhalgh

I used to work in a place called Rochdale, and there was a road called Greenhalgh Road that I used to have to go down by taxi on my way to work. I asked the taxi driver how it was pronounced, and he said something like 'Green-luh', which I thought was wrong because of its spelling. Now, in my village, there is a little shop called "Greenhalgh's", so this got me thinking. How IS it pronounced? I don't want to go into the shop just to ask this question and not buy anything. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 12:05, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Our dab page for the surname includes, in the first line, five pronunciation variants. I guess the pronunciation of the shop's name depends on how the name is pronounced by the owner (or was pronounced by the founder). Deor (talk) 12:14, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Remember last year? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:22, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Bizarrely, I actually don't. Maybe I was sick or something. Thanks for that link, anyway. It seems that there are lots of variations on this word's pronunciation. Looks like I have to go and ask the staff in the shop, buying a pint of bread in the process. Cheers. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 12:37, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Loaf of milk, surely? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:45, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

One or the other... :) KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 13:40, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

I did actually go to the shop and asked the lady behind the counter. She said it was pronounced 'Green-hal-shish', which was even more unexpected. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 16:09, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Was that Mrs Patel (you know, that nice lady who has the unfortunate lisp)? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:28, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

No, she was blonde. Probably didn't pay attention at the interview. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 18:10, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Term for describing a specific annoying behavior?

Is there a word for playing tricks on people that some people may find disruptive or annoying? On the Internet, it's called "trolling". In the 1990s, there was "prank calling". Is there a term to describe a person who annoys others, intentionally or unintentionally? 140.254.136.157 (talk) 15:08, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

In the UK I think it's "politician". Martinevans123 (talk) 15:14, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

What time period is this? Is this pre-Internet? 140.254.136.157 (talk) 15:17, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Time immemorial? Please forgive my sarcasm. (At least four months in advance of a General Election but often extends way beyond that!) Martinevans123 (talk) 15:22, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

"Trickster"? If unintentional, "douchebag"? InedibleHulk (talk) 15:24, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Could be prankster, but as with trickster, this implies deliberate action. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:28, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

This picture of Coyote captures his inadvertent douchebag side well, I find. InedibleHulk (talk) 15:38, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

So, there really isn't a single term for face-to-face "trolling" in pre-Internet days? 140.254.136.157 (talk) 15:32, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

"Screwing with" people. InedibleHulk (talk) 15:35, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

"Practical joker", or its synonyms may come close, although a bit more coy than "troll". Roget offers - sickener, bore, botherer, potherer, scorpion, tormentor. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:40, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Scorpion might mean the weapon rather than the animal, tormenting from afar. Though this scorpion was very up close and personal. So was this one. This scorpion is annoying everywhere. One second, it's "Get over here!", and the next he teleport punches you in the back of the head. I hate that guy! InedibleHulk (talk) 16:24, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Proof of dickery. InedibleHulk (talk) 16:29, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

One particular type of practical joke is called gaslighting, where you try to make the person think they have lost their mind, say by constantly moving their car keys to a different position. StuRat (talk) 07:30, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

The first line says "gaslighting is a form of mental abuse" - this term is often used to describe abusive romantic partners; I've never heard it used as a term for a type of "prank" or "practical joke." SemanticMantis (talk) 17:08, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

The first line of Prank says it's a "mischievous trick played on someone, generally causing the victim to experience embarrassment, perplexity, confusion, or discomfort." That sounds like mental abuse to me. There's no set rule, but causing physical harm is generally the point where people will say a prank "went too far". Likewise, confusing your wife by concussing her is where the cops typically step in. InedibleHulk (talk) 19:46, 4 March 2015 (UTC)