Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 August 4

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August 4

corrective discipline

The following is a quote by W.H.Auden in his prose "Reading": "All the judgements, aesthetic or moral, that we pass, however objective we try to make them, are in part a rationalization and in part a corrective discipline of our subjective wishes." I wonder how the phrase "corrective discipline" as the author uses can be understood. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.249.217.19 (talk) 03:27, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

He's saying that we use our judgements as a way of bringing our wishes under control, making them in effect less desirable. Perhaps he's implying that, if we have wishes that are unrealistic or unattainable, it's painful for us to continue to nurture them. So we make judgements to make our wishes seem less important. --Viennese Waltz 07:37, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

He's saying that all the judgements we pass, no matter how objective we try to make them, are partly based on rational (objective) thought process and partly based on the mind's subjective desire to effect a change, which it perceives as a justifiable correction. Here, 'corrective discipline' means the subjective mind's system of rules or school of thought (discipline) that cannot tolerate the situation as it stands, and demands that a correction be made. Akld guy (talk) 08:50, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

"Escalation" in management

Some text I have to revise suggests that the term "escalation" is used in English also for shifting any problem requiring resolution to a higher authority (as it is, respectively, in German). But neither the disambiguation Escalation, nor the respective Wiktionary entry mention such a use. So as an example: Would it be correct to answer an urgent customer complaint with "Your request has been escalated", when it has been transferred from a low-level to to a senior customer account manager? --KnightMove (talk) 09:34, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

That's much the same example as is used in the Cambridge Business Dictionary entry. I can't, offhand at least, think of other things that are escalated (in business contexts or otherwise) except problems (bugs, complaints). One wouldn't, for example, "escalate" approval for this year's budget, even though that approval comes from higher in the org tree. -- Finlay McWalterᚠTalk 09:38, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Quoting Wiktionary is kind of self-referent, I guess. But wikt:escalate is kind of interesting:

1. It's a back-formation from escalator, which was a coined word (with good antecedents, don't get me wrong)
2. Escalate also has transitive and intransitive meanings of intensification ("The shooting escalated the problems"). It doesn't say so at Wiktionary, but you're right. To escalate (as a verb) always implies that something bad is being intensified, not something good.
3. An "escalator clause" in a contract doesn't necessarily imply something bad happening, but you don't tend to hear the verb form of "escalate" used in this context. StevenJ81 (talk) 17:02, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

To escalate (as a verb) always implies that something bad is being intensified, not something good. Not sure that I agree entirely with that, Steven. In management settings, escalation is usually a response to a situation that has not been satisfactorily resolved at the first level interaction. The badness of the situation has intensified because of its non-resolution, but the escalation is a recognition that something different needs to be done, and by a more senior person. It would normally be a positive step in itself. The escalation can be initiated by the staff ("I'm sorry, sir, but I don't have the authority to approve the refund you're seeking, so I'm referring the request to my manager, with my recommendation that it be approved"), or by the customer ("I'm not happy with how you've dealt with this. Can I please speak to your manager".) That's in the management sense. In some other contexts, like civil strife, I agree that escalation would be the intensification of the trouble itself. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:17, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

I take your point, Jack. I really meant it the way you wrote it. I only meant that if one sees the word escalation, it is highly likely that something negative is currently being dealt with, and requires intensified focus/attention/authority. One certainly hopes the escalation resolves it positively! StevenJ81 (talk) 19:49, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Kruti Dev Font Licensing

Hi, I want to know if the font Kruti Dev is a paid licensed font or is it free for usage or re-distribution for commercial use as well. One of the Wiki links( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kruti_Dev ) says it is free however wanted to be double sure before I start re-distribution of the same- 4-Aug-15. 59.163.27.14 (talk) 10:37, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Do not rely on Wikipedia for such statements. We cannot give legal advice (which answering your question would clearly involve), and we can make no guarantee about the accuracy of articles. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:42, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Subjunctive

1. If I won the lottery ...
2. If I was rich ...
3. If I were rich ...

Which of these are subjunctives? If #2 is a subjunctive, then why is "If I were" so often singled out as an example of a subjunctive? If, on the other hand #1 is a subjunctive but #2 is not, then why the difference? 86.157.175.138 (talk) 11:51, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Higher up there is a discussion of how more frequently used words have a greater variety of forms. "If I were" is certainly a subjunctive, but less commonly used verbs may not have a separate form. 86.134.217.6 (talk) 12:19, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

86.134.217.6 (talk) is one of several London area IP sockpuppets of banned User:Vote (X) for Change

As our article Subjunctive mood states, the subjunctive expresses various states of unreality. Therefore, #1 might or might not be considered subjunctive, depending on whether in fact you did win the lottery. (If you didn't win it, then won is subjunctive, because it is a counterfactual conditional.) Your #2 is not the "correct" form for a subjunctive. According to prescriptive grammar, the only correct past-tense subjunctive form for the verb to be is were. As for "why the difference", in English, the verb to be is the only verb with a distinct past subjunctive form, and it is distinct only in the first- and third-person singular, where was would otherwise be expected. According to prescriptive rules, #2 should be used only for statements of reality. For example, "I was rich between the ages of 30 and 40. If I was rich at the time that we met, then I was living in Beverly Hills." For counterfactual conditionals, the "correct" form would be "were", as in your #3. For example, "If I were rich, I would buy you a nice house, but since I am not, we will have to keep living together with my roommates." That said, linguistic description is more interested in people's actual practice than the "correct" forms put forth by prescriptivists. And in practice, many native English speakers do not use subjunctive forms and would use forms such as your #2 even for counterfactual conditionals. Marco polo (talk) 13:24, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

I would add: At least in the US, even good language arts programs often do not teach subjunctive as subjunctive. Speaking from personal experience (ok, it's OR): I was correctly saying "If I were rich" as a child. But I didn't know that what I was doing was using the subjunctive until I started learning French in middle school. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:26, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

I'll agree with that observation. I had heard the word subjunctive, but it wasn't until I took French in high school that I actually started understanding what things like that and pluperfect meant.

To get a better grip on the subjunctive, consider these alternatives:

Indicative, dealing with facts in the past:

• I won the lottery. John asked if I won the lottery on Monday, or Tuesday.
• I am rich. John wanted to know if I was rich due to my investments or an inheritance.

Subjunctive, dealing with non-facts in the present/future:

• I haven't won the lottery. If I won the lottery some day, I would buy a boat. But I don't buy tickets.
• I am not rich. If I were rich, I would lend you the money you need. But I am not.

μηδείς (talk) 17:13, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

I agree that the subjunctive is not a topic addressed in school grammar lessons in the United States. Medeis is right that, although were is a past-tense form, it deals with "non-facts" in the present. However, there is also a present-tense subjunctive form in English, which is identical with the infinitive, used after verbal phrases stating requirement or certainty, e.g., "I insist that he wear his uniform" or "It is imperative that it be finished by the end of the day." There is also a way to express non-facts in the past, using pluperfect forms: e.g., "If I hadn't won the lottery, I would not buy this boat." Marco polo (talk) 17:35, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

The version of that last example that seems to be gaining ground is "If I wouldn't have won the lottery, I would not buy this boat". I despise it, but there you are. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:00, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

I sense that except in the case of "to be", the subjunctive mood is disappearing. Even where it is correct, people work to navigate around it. StevenJ81 (talk) 21:13, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Ancient Egyptian pronounciation

Could a linguist or an egyptologist please give me some advice , which are those still living and spoken languages , which might help to try to reconstruct ancient Egyptian pronounciation ??

I have already one-one basic audio CD about Hebrew ( Ivrit ) , Amharic , Tuareg and Hausa.

There is in process a purchase of a CD of the Oromo language too.

Are there any languages , which may help ??

Maybe Somalic ??

Or Kisuaheli , which is though not an afroasiatic language but as far as I know has some afroasiatic loan-words.Istvancsiszar1969 (talk) 13:45, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

You want to stick to the languages that are closest to ancient Egyptian. The starting point for any reconstruction of the ancient Egyptian language has to be the Coptic language, whose pronunciation is better known than that of earlier forms of Egyptian because its script includes vowels. Most Afroasiatic linguists consider the closest relatives of Egyptian to be the Chadic or Berber languages, though any common ancestor of these would have been spoken at least 7,000 years ago. You won't be able to make any valid, direct deductions about the pronunciation of ancient Egyptian from the pronunciation of modern Afroasiatic languages, since their pronunciation has certainly diverged far, probably in different directions, from any tongue ancestral to Egyptian (as has Coptic pronunciation). The methods accepted by linguists are the comparative method and internal reconstruction. The comparative method would require you to consider the phonology of as many known languages in each Afroasiatic subfamily as possible in order to reconstruct the proto-language of each of those families (for example, proto-Berber and proto-Chadic). You would also need to study the work of Egyptologists, who have used data such as transcriptions of Egyptian words and names in other ancient languages at various dates, as well as internal reconstruction, to reconstruct varieties of Egyptian earlier than Coptic. Then, by applying the comparative method to the earliest variety of Egyptian supported by these data and to the reconstructed proto-languages of kindred Afroasiatic subfamilies, it might be possible to reconstruct the phonology of a parent language shared by these Afroasiatic subfamilies. This reconstruction might assist in the reconstruction of earlier varieties of Egyptian than are supported by the documentary evidence. Much of this work has already been done, and there is no point in your starting from scratch. Instead, you want to study historical linguistic methods, then study the existing historical linguistic literature on the Afroasiatic languages, which will have applied the comparative method in many of the ways I've suggested. Then you might consider how to take these methods a step further. Marco polo (talk) 15:00, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

A considerable complication is that the Egyptian language (even disregarding Coptic and focussing on pre-Christian times) was spoken over a span of more than 2000 years, during which the pronunciation and other aspects of the language (such as the grammar) changed pretty radically. For comparison, 2000 years ago, much of Europe and Northern Africa was ruled by the Romans under the emperor Tiberius, and modern Romance languages such as French or Spanish did not exist yet, only regional dialects of spoken Latin. English did not exist yet, either, only some early form of Germanic ancestral to it, similar to what is found in early runic inscriptions. You should keep in mind that Old Egyptian, Middle Egyptian, Late Egyptian and Demotic are quite different in pronunciation. Egyptian language#Phonology has some general information, but if you are interested in the pronunciation of specific words, you'd better consult an Egyptologist. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 21:49, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Iustinus (talk · contribs) is not very active on en.wiki, but he would certainly be able to help you out here. Adam Bishop (talk) 17:13, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

This is, indeed, a pet topic of mine, but I'm not really clear on what you're asking. Feel free to contact me directly. --Iustinus (talk) 00:44, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Traps in action

Bombs go off and you can set off a bomb. What does a trap do? --Pxos (talk) 17:15, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Same. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 17:21, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

One can spring a trap (or a surprise), as well. Tevildo (talk) 19:02, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Irrelevant conversation about Slinkies
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
And the oddities of English being what they are, you can seal a Slinky into a box, which is trapping a spring. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:28, 4 August 2015 (UTC) Sufferin' succotash, Bugs! StevenJ81 (talk) 21:13, 4 August 2015 (UTC) User:Baseball Bugs, Not much fun sealing a Slinky into a box, because they don't behave the same when you kick them down the stairs. Wives are more fun because they bounce, and you can pick them up and keep doing it until the football comes on TV. Then when she wakes up from her unconsciousness, you can get her to make you a sandwich. Always worked with my ex-wife. Lovely sandwiches, shame about the wife. KägeTorä - (影虎) (もしもし！) 00:13, 5 August 2015 (UTC) Where I come from, we don't consider wife-beating jokes to be funny. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:05, 5 August 2015 (UTC) Where I come from, User:Baseball Bugs, we don't consider a Slinky to be a productive form of entertainment. KägeTorä - (影虎) (もしもし！) 06:17, 5 August 2015 (UTC) Do you really have Slinkies over there? I remember them from about fifty years ago as a coiled spring which you could position at the top of a staircase and it would walk down to the bottom. They were a short - lived fad like hula hoops and pogo sticks. 80.43.198.251 (talk) 10:43, 5 August 2015 (UTC) I'm in the UK, mate, same as you. You can still buy Slinkies (and hula-hoops and pogo sticks). I just never had any of them. KägeTorä - (影虎) (もしもし！) 16:01, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Can one say "trap some crap"? If yes, could someone create a little collapsible box, put in some of the banter above and throw away the key? Thanks. --Pxos (talk) 16:16, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

You could also trigger a trap. StuRat (talk) 16:06, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

You can trigger a bomb, as well. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 16:15, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

You can also set up us the bomb.--Shirt58 (talk) 01:05, 9 August 2015 (UTC)