Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 August 24

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August 24

Compare: and vs with

Do you compare this and that or this with that? --129.215.47.59 (talk) 09:26, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

With. You compare "with" and you compare "to". Akseli9 (talk) 09:35, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

You can also "compare .. and .. ", as in the traditional exam question formula "compare and contrast X and Y". AndrewWTaylor (talk) 12:34, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

If you're making all the possible comparisons between three or more things, it has to be and: "Compare the proposals from Ford, Chrysler, and GM and pick the best one." If you said "Compare the proposal from Ford with (or to) the Chrysler and GM ones", they wouldn't be comparing the latter two with each other. --65.94.50.17 (talk) 16:23, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

"Dog" and "nine"

"Dog" and "nine" sound similar in Chinese. Any other similarities or differences between them? GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 14:43, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

What do you mean by "Chinese"? As our articel Chinese language says, Chinese is a group of related but in many cases mutually unintelligible language varieties. The most spoken, Mandarin, pronounces the dog "gǒu", and the number nine "jiǔ" (using Pinyin), which is as similar as "go" and "Joe" in English. — Sebastian 15:41, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

And what do you mean by "them" - dogs and nines? — Sebastian 15:43, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Probably the OP was thinking of Cantonese，where 狗 'dog' and 九 'nine' are in fact pronounced the same, gau2 (in Jyutping). Of course, that doesn't answer the question what he means by "similarities and differences". Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:54, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

That reminds me of when I was mentoring in an elementary school, and one pupil of Guangdong extraction asked me to say something in Chinese. I answered in Mandarin, and she replied angrily: "No, the other Chinese!" — Sebastian 16:38, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

As a Chinese speaker to whom neither Mandarin nor Cantonese is native, I remember being surprised when I was first told by an Australian of British descent that there were two kinds of Chinese, Mandarin and Cantonese. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 17:38, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

He meant restaurants. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 07:06, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

What is your native variety of Chinese, if you care to say? --Trovatore (talk) 02:47, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

They have never claimed they are a native speaker of Chinese. It seems like they were taught "Chinese" (probably Mandarin or any artificial version of it), without being told which Chinese. HOOTmag (talk) 08:45, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

PalaceGuard did not explicitly claim to be a native speaker of Chinese, but did mention two varieties of Chinese and say that neither of them were native to him/her. Using the tacit assumption that PalaceGuard is comporting with the Gricean maxim of relevance, I infer that there is some other variety of Chinese that is native. --Trovatore (talk) 21:37, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Or probably a native speaker of one of the other varieties of Chinese, as Trovatore mentioned. Adam Bishop (talk) 11:19, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Why the hell a native speaker? HOOTmag (talk) 13:36, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Well I suppose we'll have to wait for PalaceGuard to come back, but it seems that he meant he is a native speaker of a Chinese language that is not Mandarin or Cantonese. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:37, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

So, Mr./Mrs. Palaceguard, if you hear us, please come out and tell us, both whether you are a native speaker of Chinese, and which variety of Chinese you speak. HOOTmag (talk) 14:50, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Very much flattered that I have generated enough interest to warrant an email from KageTora himself! Trovatore's theory is correct. My native variety of Chinese is Wu. The first level divisions of Chinese by number of native speakers are, in order, Mandarin, Wu, Min, then Cantonese. Not having previously encountered the view, common outside of China, that Mandarin and Cantonese are the two main varieties of Chinese, I was surprised to hear that Mandarin and Cantonese are the "only two" kinds of Chinese to that person.

It may or may not have been the same person, but I also remember being asked whether I spoke "Cantonese or Mantonese". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 13:07, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Are you sure he didn't say 'Wontun-ese'? KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 17:25, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Term for choosing a term that sounds more palatable to an audience?

I KNOW there is a term for this, but I just can't think of it right now. It's right at the tip-of-the-tongue.

Some people may say, "I am pro-choice. He is anti-choice." Then some people may say, "I am pro-life. He is anti-life." The issue is still the same, but the wording sweetens the positions of the proponents by making the opposing side look bad. 140.254.226.232 (talk) 21:08, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Ameliorate? Akld guy (talk) 22:02, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Euphemize, dysphemize, doublespeak. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:10, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

"Framing" - Framing_(social_sciences)#Framing_in_mass_communication_research, Framing_effect_(psychology). One side frames the position as "pro-life", the other side frames it as "anti-choice". You may find these articles about linguistic framing in politics relevant [1] [2]. SemanticMantis (talk) 22:15, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Here's another, possibly "malreported". InedibleHulk (talk) 22:46, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

I'll also throw Cognitive reframing, Cognitive restructuring, Cognitive distortion and Cognitive dissonance out there. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:52, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

"Spin". StuRat (talk) 01:47, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

In the case of political issues such as abortion, I agree that "spin" is the best term. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:27, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Before it was appropriated by the spin doctors, abortion was a personal issue (like "Little Miss Can't Be Wrong".) Being pro or anti simply determined whether you'd get a baby, rather than whether you'd get favourable press. Strange, but true. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:47, 25 August 2015 (UTC) 20:47, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

“Just go ahead now.” What the fuck does that mean? It doesn’t mean anything. It’s just garbage. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:51, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Probably not the word that is on the tip of your tongue, but that describes "rhetoric" to me. Wikipedia article here: rhetoric. Wiktionary definition here: wikt:rhetoric. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 03:34, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Wordsmithing? Dismas|^(talk) 04:21, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Obfuscation, Orwellian, Newspeak. Bus stop (talk) 04:29, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

It cannot be logomachy... I'd used "forced perspective", a term not properly belonging to the field semantically but which can be found giving some more or less matching results: [3]. Regarding rhetoric and ideology Kenneth Burke would be the one. --Askedonty (talk) 06:14, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

As framed, a complex word choice. What are you thinking of?

Diction applies to rhetorical or poetic word choice, but the OP's example of pro-choice / anti-choice vs. pro-life / anti-life suggests not mere word choice but paradigm choice, i.e., framing. Cognitive linguist and metaphor theorist George Lakoff may be the most accessible introduction to the latter; Aristotle is, of course, the first rhetorician of diction in the sense of word choice.. -- Paulscrawl (talk) 05:36, 25 August 2015 (UTC)