Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 April 30

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April 30

I'm searching for an Icelandic word

A word that I heard in Ísland Got Talent. see here [1] in 7:52. The word that sound like kokkolté. How does is written and what does the word mean? 149.78.124.20 (talk) 06:06, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

I don't speak Icelandic, but from context, it seems pretty clearly to be a greeting, since the two performers respond with exact same phrase. I searched for common Icelandic greetings, and "good evening" (which would be a reasonable thing for them to be saying) is Góða kvöldið. The speaker in this tutorial on YouTube says the phrase slowly and carefully at ~0:23, and it sounds similar enough that I'm willing to believe I'm hearing the difference between someone saying it distinctly for a non-native speaker, and native speakers saying it casually to each other. There's a thread on a Wordreference.com forum here that discusses the grammar a bit, as well. some jerk on the Internet (talk) 13:11, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Chopin quotation

Supposedly, there is this quotation by Chopin for one of his pieces: "In all my life I have never again been able to find such a beautiful melody." I would like to know how it sounded in the original language since I doubt Chopin spoke English. I think it would be either French or Polish. I didn't find this quotation directly in French, only several versions in indirect speech, which is odd, and I don't know any Polish. --2.245.110.199 (talk) 21:38, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

This is strong evidence that it's something he never said at all, and would have been very much out of character had he said it. It was clearly made up by someone else and attributed to him. Hence, searching for his exact words in Polish or French is futile, because they never existed. But the Étude in E major, "Tristesse" is indeed beautiful. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:54, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

Which somewhat begs the question of why it's used in the Études (Chopin) article, attributed to him, in quotation marks, as the caption to the opening bars of that piece. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:25, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

If it lacks proper attribution, zap it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:27, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Good idea, except that the source is this one: "Palmer, Willard A., ed. (1992). Chopin Etudes for the Piano, Practical Performing Edition. USA: Alfred Publishing Co., Inc. ISBN 0-7390-2497-3" - which seems somewhat reliable? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:37, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

For the sake of accuracy, then, the article should include Jack's citation that it might not be accurate. Or maybe it's a misquote, which happens all the time. Bogie never said "Play it again, Sam," although that quote captures the essence of what he said. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:02, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Blimey, I didn't realise Rick's Café was really in Valldemossa!! Martinevans123 (talk) 13:40, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

@Martinevans123:, re your earlier point about the reliability of the existing source: I don't know that particular edition of the Chopin Études. Such editions are, generally, primarily intended to give the player an assurance that the notes they're playing are what the composer intended, free from all later emendations or editorial markings by well-meaning others. I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of the publication to that extent (but without seeing it, I couldn't give it my imprimatur either, you'd understand).

However, as for the accuracy of the historical notes, well, that's a different story. They might give a potted history of the composer, but they're not historians. They might include alleged quotes from the composer himself, but almost certainly they haven't tracked down the letter or speech or wherever the composer actually uttered those words and got them in their original language and found out who translated them into English and when. Much more likely is that they've just copied what some other source claimed the composer said. Hence, while editions from reputable music publishers can be considered reliable sources for the music itself, they cannot be considered reliable sources for historical details, particularly ones that aren't confirmed in encyclopedic sources, and particularly ones that professional musicologists have struggled and failed to confirm.

My experience of dealing with the world of music academia and pedagogy tells me that anecdata more often than not takes the place of actual historical truth. Some such data sometimes has a basis in truth; but often not. Teachers were students themselves once, and they too have fallen into the trap of believing every word that emanated from the lips of their now long-dead teachers in whose thrall they were once agreeably enmeshed. Memories get murky over time, so even if the teacher spoke the truth all those years ago, the version now being passed on to their own students is not necessarily the same thing. Wikipedia is replete with talk page questions such as "My music teacher told me that in the third movement of this symphony Brahms was really depicting his love for his pet zebra, but why can't I find any mention of this on google?". The question must be: How come these sources know what the musicologists don't know? Most likely answer: They don't. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:24, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Wise words... (especially "anecdata", which I can't recall ever seeing before!) So feel free to trim that caption, then. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:32, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Done, with pleasure. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:51, 1 May 2015 (UTC)